 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: srattle
Date: 2008-01-22 17:05
Hi,
this may be a silly question, and this is just for interest, I can't imagine trying to get this down.
I know silver and gold plating can be done on clarinet keys, but is there anyway to get the keys other colors, while still being practical?
Could you, forinstance, blacken the metal?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-01-22 17:14
Interesting thought. If it would be possible to anodize the keys, any number of colors would be possible and it should not effect the "feel" of the keys at all. I don't know though if this is possible for silver or nickel the way it is for aluminum.
Any metalurgists out there?
............Paul Aviles
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-22 17:49
I can’t answer your question precisely except to say that there are many types of color options that exist in the plate alloy itself (e.g. rose, Hamilton gold, black nickel, etc).
I have had a hard time finding professional plating companies that offered a wide variety of plating options. I think that most of the large instrument manufacturers do there own and the only plating company that I really trust, Anderson’s, only offers silver, 24K gold, copper, and stainless steel. I’ve always worried about trying other companies that don’t deal with musical instruments because I have seen some pretty poor results in the past with flaking. I really wish I knew of some other good options. I’d love to put Hamilton gold on my Recital purely for aesthetic reasons.
John
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Author: Darktide
Date: 2008-01-22 21:44
Any metal can withstand 400F can be powder coated. I think making the keys black would be a pretty sweet effect. You'd have to take the pads and cork off and you'd want to do the posts as well. But it definitely could be done. There are A LOT of small powder coating shops around the world, so give your local yellow pages a look and give'm a call and ask. You'd be surprised at some of the more reasonable prices.
Jay
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-22 22:05
Metallurgist replies: The silver will turn black...just give it time. I have always associated anodizing only with Aluminum but things change so fast these days, who knows. A Titanium nitride coating could look like gold. I do believe there is a black nickel or Chrome.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-01-22 22:41
Almost anything's possible in principle - practicality is more interesting. The range of metals you can plate depends on the base metal - some platings require a series of layers to get the final effect required (just think of EPNS 'silver' tableware - you can't plate the silver direct on the steel.) But that will still leave you with metallic keys. Colouring the metal requires some sort of chemical treatment - to deposit a stable coloured compound, or in the case of anodized aluminium to absorb a dye into a layer of oxide. Anodized titanium naturally shows iridescent rainbow colours. One of the more interesting things I've seen recently is the effect of laser marking, where the same sort of iridescence can be patterned directly onto the base material. Very dark shades can also be achieved by this technique.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-22 22:55
Have a look on eBay at the variety of Chinese flutes and piccolos with coloured lacquered bodies - you can have a durable coating of clear lacquer over the silver plate (or polished base metal provided it's all the same alloy) which can be any colour you like.
I assume you've seen how durable the lacquer is on brass instruments and saxes, so it should work on clarinet keys provided all the preparation and lacquering is done well.
Just out of interest, did Selmer ever gold lacquer the metalwork on Centered Tones? Just thinking of lacquered keys sparked this memory of my original Centered Tone set which had gold lacquered keys when I first got them, but I stripped the remaining lacquer and had them all silver plated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-23 12:59
Colored or plated key work is good for a player's ego or "audience effect" but just a general pain for techs. Who was that old timer who refused to continue to buy Buffet horns after they started to plate the keywork. Plating just screws up tolerances.
Bob Draznik
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Author: srattle
Date: 2008-01-23 14:19
It may be a big deal for techs, but the instrumentalist has to live with their instrument for years, and some would like that to be as personal as possible. Yes it might be more work for the tech, but not without payment, and that is what they are there to do, right?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-23 14:35
"Plating just screws up tolerances."
It's not the plating, it's whoever overbroaches, overfraises or overcounterbores the keywork that purposely screws up tolerances (not that clarinets have that much critically interlinked keywork as oboes do - they're pretty basic in comparison) - but this is what needs to be done for them to function.
Have you ever seen a clarinet straight from the factory with perfect tolerances? No clarinet has perfect tolerances on account of them being made of wood which is constantly on the move against metal which is very stable in comparison, so there has to be some play in the keywork to be sure it will all work under any circumstances.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Musinix
Date: 2008-01-23 19:22
I recently had my 1969 R-13 restored and the keywork plated in gold by Anderson plating. Both the technician and Anderson did an outstanding job. It was purchased for me new in 1970 with the gold keywork, so I wanted to restore it to it's original beauty.
Thomas Fiebig
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2008-01-24 09:09
Bassie wrote "(just think of EPNS 'silver' tableware - you can't plate the silver direct on the steel.)"
I hope you weren't suggesting that the base metal of EPNS is steel.
EPNS is ElectroPlated Nickel Silver. (Usually - always? - silver plating.) Nickel silver has no silver in it, but is about 3/4 copper and 1/4 nickel, with possibly some other minor components. (When polished it looks similar to silver, hence, I suppose, the name. Also called German Silver, maybe with slight alloying differences)
This thread may be of interest if you want to turn silver black. Turning silver black is often done by silversmiths, eg for background for a bright shiny raised design.
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=75724
Post Edited (2008-01-24 22:59)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-01-24 11:26
Dear Chris,
Both my Yamaha CSGs came with perfect tolerances from the factory. Of course the French are notorious for letting details slip, just check out the 7 Billion dollar bank debacle in today's news.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-24 13:38
"It was purchased for me new in 1970 with the gold keywork" WOW, lucky guy.
"EPNS is ElectroPlated Nickel Silver" Thanks Gordon, I was wondering what that meant. The terminology can be confusing since one person could mean "Nickel silver applied by electroplating over something" or "Nickel silver key work electroplated with silver or nickel or...whatever."
There is also Electroless Nickel Plating which is a nickel compound applied chemically. My experience with it is limited to electric shaver blades where it was not very successful. It is, however, successfully used in other applications.....reflectors as I recall.
Bob Draznik
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-01-24 18:38
I started , in 1934, on a metal Greville Paris. All Chromium plated body and keys. Ridenour Arioso clarinets came with optional Platinum plating for a short time.
richard smith
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-24 22:37
Geez Richard, I was only 5 years old in '34!....and you were sending all that Dust to us in the Midwest.
Bob Draznik
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