 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: butterflymusic
Date: 2008-01-23 06:12
I've been told by my band director that my sound is too bright, and I should try to darken it. It's not financially feasible for me to go and buy a whole new setup at this point --oh, I can swing a new box of reeds, but not a whole new mouthpiece/ligature combo.
Can anyone here offer advice on some things I could try to darken my sound?
Current setup:
Horn: Buffet E11 (Bb)
Mouthpiece: Vandoren 5RV Lyre
Ligature:Vandoren "Master L11B" (black metal, reverse screws, 2 bands across the reed)
Reed: Vandoren size 4.5 (dark blue box)
I also have the items below in my arsenal that I've tried on and off on occasion but was never completely satisfied with (but I'm open to suggestions):
-Vandoren Leather ligature w/3 different inserts
-Pomarico "ruby" mouthpiece
-Rico Grand Concert Select reeds, size 4.5
If this is important, a few words about me -- I was a clarinet major in college, many many moons ago (like, 20 - aah) but stopped playing, and have since started over after a 16-year hiatus. I play principal clarinet in our local community band which offers some decently challenging stuff (Rhapsody in Blue last year, Blue Shades by Frank Ticheli this year). I'm not currently taking lessons from anyone.
Thanks in advance, everyone!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-01-23 07:19
If my band director would say this to me I would find it very rude. Just listen to some great and famous players like Michael Collins and Kari Kriikku they both have very bright and I like to call it clarinet/flute like tone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-01-23 07:52
Should you want a 'darker' sound, changing the reed is not enough to help. Basically, it is necessary for you to change your setup, and what I propose is, that you change your mouthpiece to one of a long facing.
Chan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2008-01-23 11:20
I find the Vandoren blue are quite a bright-sounding reed - a change might help (and man, 4.5 is tough! :-) ). Also I find my Rovner ligature takes the edge off the sound and rounds it out some.
Bright can be good - for clarity in a large ensemble, for example - but there is such a thing as /too/ bright.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-01-23 11:41
One's sound is NOT in the set up perse. Your sound is determined by your air stream (and your embouchure).
To address air I would first draw the analogy to the sort of air one employs to cool off a hot cup of coffee......thin and "cool" (really what makes it "cool" is the speed of the air through a given aperture). So, as long as you position your tongue as if you are saying "EEEEE" and you are pushing with a steady contraction of your intercostal muscles (rib muscles), you should create a very robust timbre at ALL dynamic levels.
The 5RV Lyre/Vandoren is a fine combo. No changes should be necessary. Of course I am always looking for the perfect mouthpiece (and who isn't?), that one is high up on my list along with the M15 and M13 (non Lyre) Vandorens.
Your conductor may be picking up on an "un-supported" sound. Let him have it with a good dose of AIR !!!!
........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-23 12:41
I'd show up for rehearsal wearing sun glasses......and lay in wait for his question.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan25
Date: 2008-01-23 14:37
I agree with David,
Your reeds are way too hard for that mouthpiece which means you are most likely bitting like crazy and your throat and chest is also dealing with that resistance. These things will cause you too have a "bright" thin sound that is forced and thin.
Try a softer reed and pay attention to keeping your throat open. Our embouchure should mainly be creating a air tight seal around the mouthpiece. A reed as hard as yours on that mouthpiece is just not a good combination. You want the air to do the work not your jaw.
I would try at least a 4 or even a 3 1/2 and work towards as much relaxation in your playing as possible. Hard reeds don't always yield a dark sound. "Darkness" or richness in the sound has more to do with the way you play then your equipment. Sure, certain mouthpieces/clarinets/ligatures can help that but 85 % of it comes from the player.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-01-23 15:27
Have your band director wear the shades!
Emma is bright and beautiful!
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: butterflymusic
Date: 2008-01-23 17:01
Thanks for all the helpful advice. And no, I wasn't insulted at what the director said. I solicited the feedback, and it was given in private, so it's not like he was bashing me in front of everyone. He doesn't do that. Much. 
Faster air stream --- I think you're on to something there, I am a bit lazy with air support.
On the reed strength --- now THAT is an eye-opener, and I will certainly experiment. In my college days we all subscribed to the "popsicle stick" reed philosophy, I think it was assumed that a thin reed = thin sound.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-01-23 18:22
To reduce brightness, roll more of your lower lip over your lower teeth -- most of the red part instead of half. You could also try the dreaded "bunched chin" embouchure, which covers the sound by putting more tissue on the reed. Drucker does fine that way.
You should also try the Rovner Dark ligature, which covers the tone and is inexpensive ($28.75). http://www.rovnerproducts.com/dark.htm
When I was in the West Point Band, I studied with Alexander Williams, who told me that my sound lacked the necessary "ping" for solo or orchestral playing. He said that almost all full-time band players had a covered tone, which he thought was probably necessary to blend into a large clarinet section. We worked hard on making a change.
There are relatively inexpensive mouthpieces, such as the Fobes Debut ($37), which, IMHO, will give you a more interesting tone than even the best machine-made mouthpiece such as a Vandoren. If you're a teacher, he will send you one free. http://www.clarkwfobes.com/freebiepage.html
Kalmen Opperman favors a well-centered tone that also has plenty of "OOOO" (as in "cool"). This mitigates the effect of brightness.
Listen to Stoltzman, Marcellus and the other top players and experiment with every embouchure tongue and soft palate position to learn to make many good tones, not just one.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2008-01-23 18:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2008-01-23 20:48
I am in agreement with your reeds being way too hard. Don't know how you can play with those! Try a 2-1/2 reed, you will be amazed at the difference.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-01-23 20:55
Ken Shaw said:
"Listen to Stoltzman, Marcellus and the other top players and experiment with every embouchure tongue and soft palate position to learn to make many good tones, not just one".
Ehe Stoltzman a top player!!!!! For me he is an example of how not to play. His vibrato is so mechanical it's unbearable.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-23 21:38
Eating loads of chocolate and then playing will darken and sweeten the tone.
Either that or make you sick.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-01-23 21:38
Iceland: Stoltzman's vibrato? Check out the Berliner Philharmoniker principal's vibrato in Simon Rattle's concert version of "Wonderful Town".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-01-23 21:49
Iceland clarinet -
Whatever you think of Stoltzman, I think you'll admit that he makes a wide variety of sounds, which was my point. And by the way, he's a monster technician and can play with perfect control in any number of ways.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris22311
Date: 2008-01-23 21:59
I kind of like butterfly's set up! I play on size 5 reeds (blue box) on a Hawkins R and it gives me alot of resonance and meat. I'd recommend trying 5's. It may be too much for someone w/ a weak embouchure, but a box of 5's are a good way to experimenting with extra meat.
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-01-23 22:31
I like my meat medium so it has that toughness and flexibility, not burn't to crisp so that it's to tough and tasteless.
Experiment with a medium-open mouthpiece and 3-1/2 vandoren reeds and also think about the lower chin position. If it's really tight and pointing towards the floor then you will get a bright sound. Try relaxing so that when you put the clarinet in your mouth you get a more natural chin with the pressure in the top lip muscles.
Each to there own.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-01-23 23:55
I agree with all the above, except for the comment on chocolate. I do want to stress though that I found that the reed strength isn't a "you need x strength of reed or stronger" type scenario. Certain mouthpieces require certain reed strengths to bring out their best. I can throw a 5 reed on my mouthpiece and gain strength to play it, but I've found that a reed between 3.5 and 4 (I take a 4 and shave it down VERY slightly while balancing it) brings out all sorts of colors. I can make it sound very dark, or I can make it sound bright and happy. With same reed. I've had a great mouthpieces that required a vandoren v12 size 5 on it. And I had to use a reed cutter to 'clip' the size 5 to make it stiffer. And at the SAME time, I tried and bought another mouthpiece that anything harder than a 3 felt like I was strapping a 2x4 on the mouthpiece. I couldn't get anything but the rush of air to pass through.
Also, like it was said a couple times above, if you don't do it already, try having a nice and loose embouchure with maybe the same or thinner reed. If it hasn't been mentioned already (I got a little lazy and skimmed instead of read), try using a double lip embouchure to see if you're using too much pressure. If you're using way too much pressure, your top lip will hurt when you try double lip from your teeth pressing into it. If you have a nice light embouchure, it shouldn't hurt (maybe VERY slightly, but you'll be able to play with it).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-24 00:34
Has anyone suggested playing ?it? on their A clarinet ? Some of us try to brighten its dark sound , I use mine unaccompanied, and very few can distinguish that it is a 1/2 tone lower. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-01-24 01:03
Ken maybe Stoltzman makes wide variety of sounds but then he does it very mechanicaly and in my opinion he is not a top player sorry.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2008-01-24 02:24
What about playing with more wood (reed) closer up on (toward the tip of) the mouthpiece? -Silly Bill.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-24 13:46
I like Stoltzman's playing and his sound(s). But then I also like Emma Johnson and Reginal Kell...... just call me narrow minded.
I would think that Stoltzman's warm sound would be appreciated in the colder climate regions.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ABerry
Date: 2008-01-24 15:25
Beverly,
You may also want to try some of the thicker blank reeds, such as Vandoren V12s, Blackmaster, or the Gonzales F.O.F reeds with your Vandoren Leather, or possibly a Bonade inverted ligature...
Allan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2008-01-24 16:13
I agree with the ideas about lightening your reeds a bit, relaxing your embouchure, air concentrating on air support. Think about adjusting your embouchure a and vocal cavity as some have mentioned. A lot of tone is about what you do, not about equipment. Sure equipment can make SOME difference, but it is not the whole answer. Robert Marcellus would still sound like himself on your set up. Granted, he might have to work a bit harder than on his own set up to do so.
Start with the reeds and changing your ideas about how you play. See where that gets you. If you get too crazy about equipment it can be a slippery slope, as they say. The next thing you know you have a drawer full of stuff and are looking for more.
Good luck.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2008-01-24 18:33
Try softer reed. Say VD Rue 56 #3.5 or 3.0. Also, I like Fobes Debut better than VD M13. Check new mpc for symmetry.;some, ,even custom, are not symmetrical. Or, do nothing. A bright sound is neither good nore evil.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2008-01-24 18:51
I agree with those who recommend a softer reed.
In addition, you could play-test a smaller bore clarinet to see if that helps. Selmer's Recital is a good place to start. Take your band director with you to get some feedback.
Chocolate will make your pads stick, but you probably knew that :-)
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-01-24 21:44
If "bright" means too much high frequencies harmonics in your sound then what you need to try is dampen them so that more of the fundamental comes across.
There are many things you can do to sound "darker" and only a competent teacher can figure out what will work best for you. As you don't seem enclined to take lessons, here are a few suggestions:
1- Think of your lips as a rubber band around the mouthpiece, the more rubber on the reed the more dampening of the sound. Experiment with the amount of lips in contact with the reed but also with the placement of your bottom teeth with respect to the reed. Ideally you want to have your lips positioned at the point where the reed stops touching the mouthpiece. A little higher, may dampen the sound; a little lower may sound a little "wild" and possibly bright.
2- Play around with a double lip embouchure, that will make you conscious of just how much you bite. This will help correct some bad habits even if you end up going back to single lip.
3- Experiment with tongue/throat configurations. High, low, open close....
Find the configurations that feel comfortable and provide a consistent sound across all registers of the instrument.
4- If you can, record yourself, so that you hear what is coming out of the clarinet. The experience of your sound while you play may differ from what is actually being projected to the audience (and your conductor!)
5- Be patient, changing your sound will not happen overnight and it is likely things may get worse before they get better.
As far as equipment is concerned, I don't think that the 5RV Lyre is a particularly bright mouthpiece, but others may disagree. However, a 4.5 VD traditional reed seems rather stiff for this mouthpiece. I would personally play on a 3 or 3.5.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2008-01-24 22:23
Dear Arnoldstang,
Fewer upper partials at the expense of a centered sound with projection. Don't get me wrong, the Legeres are imperative for massive doubling scenarios and times when there is VERY low humidity (such as NOW). Still if you're just playing one clarinet at a time nothing will sound better than real cane.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Llewsrac
Date: 2008-01-25 04:42
Reduce your current reed strength, 3 to 3.5.
Relax the back of your throat.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-01-25 07:38
>> I like Stoltzman's playing and his sound(s). But then I also like Emma Johnson and Reginal Kell...... just call me narrow minded. <<
Maybe some others don't have minds narrow enough to fit into all the small cracks so they have no idea what's there! 
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-01-25 13:46
To those who focus on only one musical style (or genre), we often ascribe the term "hardening of the categories" . . . they are rock steady on a railroad track with blinders on, thereby missing the wonderful variety of expression offered by the broader world of music. So sad is the loss.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-01-25 14:56
Again we are heading towards subjectivityland. Johnny Smith(a grade 2 student) prefers the clarinet sound of a rank beginner over Marcellus. David Blumberg probably doesn't have the same opinion. Both have opinions but I side with David and his minded approach. It is somewhat revealing that Johnny Smith or other grade 2 students are not on the panel of auditioners for the Chicago Symphony. (perhaps it is discrimination) They have opinions but just don't know enough about the subject. The problem becomes even worse when experts disagree. Why does this happen? What is the tipping point for brightness or harshness in tone? What is the tipping point for darkness or smoothyness in tone? In the above topic I would think the band director does hear thinness or something that doesn't appeal to him. It probably isn't a Stoltzman quality that he is hearing. In any case he's in charge and there is lots to be gained by changing the tone of the student if it is possible with reeds or techniques. In this particular case I am a big believer that the reed is monumental here but then again a short private lesson would be the most direct approach to fixing the problem. ps. of course the discrimination does exist because they want the auditioners to be good at auditioning. We all know that it isn't until Grade 5 than kids are smarter than adults(reference to TV show)
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2008-01-25 15:45)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-01-25 15:53
Hey, what horn were you playing when you were a Clarinet Major?
The E-11 is pitched to 442 which gives you a shorter barrel - are you sharp? A longer barrel will also help to give you a darker tone.
I don't recommend an adult play the E-11 as it is really a student instrument and sounds like one too.
The R-13 gives a much better tone.
yeah, I said it .......
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-01-25 16:44
"I don't recommend an adult play the E-11 as it is really a student instrument and sounds like one too."
Sorry, David, in my experience a good E11 retrofitted with an R13 barrel (66mm) can sound just as good as many "pro" clarinets and tune quite well at A=440. Sure, there are other quality issues, but for an avocational player, the 4x more cost of a pro clarinet could be better spent on, for instance, private lessons.
With me!
I know of at least one major symphony Eb clarinetist who choses to play on an E11 Eb even though he could painlessly afford a Prestige model.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: butterflymusic
Date: 2008-01-25 17:49
David,
When I was in college I had a Buffet R13. I didn't think about the E11 barrel, and will certainly consider trying out a longer one someday for the heck of it.
As far as pitch goes I'm a tad sharp on my E11, but fortunately it's consistent thru all the registers so pulling out at the barrel usually works. Interestingly my R13 had pretty major pitch issues - very sharp in the throat tones. I remember I had to be quite creative with fingerings to keep the throat register in line....
Beverly
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2008-01-25 19:24
Is your technique ok with the cramped bottom rh hand position that the E-11 has? (the keys are smaller)
I knew a trumpet player who made All State Band on a Sears Trumpet.
Great player, crappy instrument in his case. Not that the E-11 is a bad horn, but you could do a lot better even with a slightly used pro clarinet.
---------------------
"I know of at least one major symphony Eb clarinetist who choses to play on an E11 Eb even though he could painlessly afford a Prestige model."
--------------------
If I took my Lyons C Clarinet on stage I'd get laughed off of it. The E-11 is my favorite student instrument, but just upgrading the barrel doesn't to me cut it. Then again, there are players who like plastic and hard rubber clarinets....
Not I (so far at least.....)
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2008-01-25 20:33
Funny -- when I play on my students' E11's I'm not aware of any radical difference in key size/placement. Guess I'm nerve dead!
David, I wouldn't laugh you off the stage -- at least not until I heard you play!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
