 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BFlatorelse
Date: 2008-01-21 20:44
I am a former student of Rosario's. He gave me a set of the Bflat Mechanism keys to convert any after market Bb and A clarinets. I did convert my Selmer Recital Series and don't ever want to have to play a clarinet that doesn't have these mechanisms. Tough converting but very, very worth while.
Anyway, I am concerned that if anything happened to my set, perhaps stolen, that I would have to find another key set as they are not made anymore. Not sure if I'd want to buy used because of lack of ability to choose the clarinets I want.
Does anyone know where I could find key sets for the Mazzeo Bb Mech? I am still trying to find a contact number for Selmer as well perhaps they can help me out. Certainly if they aren't stolen I can "harvest" the keys off my current set.
Thanks!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-21 20:59
Hi B F - I, and many others, have a Bundy Mazzeo, and they appear on "the auction site" often, so is what you want only those parts for the Bb [trill key actuation]?, if so, that may be your source [$1-200] . Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: cpark
Date: 2008-01-21 21:58
wow, interesting...didn't know this existed. Can you post some pictures?
I'm assuming this opens the Bb side key when you finger regular Bb?
Chris
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Author: Brianj
Date: 2008-01-21 22:19
How hard is it really to add the Mazzeo parts to a regular clarinet?? I have been thinkin gabout this and have meant to ask on the board.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-21 22:42
It's probably easier making the mechanism from scratch rather than scavenging around for parts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-21 23:22
Must be Mazzeo Day today - I was working on one of three Bundy Mazzeos this evening. Well, two of those three had the same mechanism, the third one sports a slightly different variety (the curvy bis key lookalike).
I've disengaged the Bb mechanism as it got in the way (I usually leave my RH fingers down when playing throat notes), but ever since I uses the side trill (on std Boehm) for Bb rather than pinching, whenever possible. The fake bis key on that third Mazzeo, however, is neat.
--
Ben
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Author: BFlatorelse
Date: 2008-01-22 01:53
I am delighted with all the interest! I put together a web page with a photo of the mechanism and a description of the parts as best I could, along with the story.
http://www.sedonamtb.com/Mazzeo/
I agree with Chris that these parts could be hand made as I state on the web page. However, the Bundy parts may make due......
Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2008-01-22 02:40
There are at least two "distinct" key mechanisms -- designed to do the same operations with different designs on the "Mazzeo" keys and clutch -- for the high end Paris Selmer models. The "older" design typically appears on the Selmer Series 9*s and the "newer" design appears on most of the Selmer Series 10-based Mazzeo models (10M and 21M). [I own exemplars of each.] Both mechanisms appear to work equally well, and at least at my playing level and with the adjustments they are currently in, and I am of the opinion that the "newer" design may have been more for cosmetic purposes or ease of adjustment purposes than for any operational reasons.
Your set of keys and clutch appear to be of the "newer" design and probably derives from the high end model since the keys used on the Selmer Signet and Bundy models are "more clunky" than those in your photograph. I am curious about when you received them.
In terms of source for new or replacement Mazzeo keys, I know of none, and with the auction price of Paris Selmer Mazzeos being fairly high and rising, I doubt that it would be worth it to purchase one of the few exemplars that comes up for auction infrequently to use for parts. Were I to want to convert a modern clarinet with Mazzeo keys (now off patent), I am pretty sure that I would go to a custom clarinet maker to fabricate the keys. Note that it is NOT necessary to have a clutch if one wants to use the clarinet in the Mazzeo mode as the clutch was designed to permit the clarinet to be used in either the Mazzeo mode or a "regular" Boehm mode.
Margaret Thornhill of the Los Angeles Clarinet Chorus is one of two individuals I know who still performs professionally on Mazzeo clarinets with the other being Sherman Friedland who is in semi-retirement. Dr. Thornhill has clips of her performances on her web site and Mr. Friedland offers copies of his performance CDs on his web site. I do not believe that all of the recordings by Dr. Thornhill or Mr. Friedland were necessarily made on Mazzeo clarinets as both also play traditional Boehm clarinets and would suggest that you contact them to clarify this point if you are interested. You can reach the web site of either by using standard search engines. Mr. Friedland's web site is the best single source of information on the Mazzeo clarinet by a performer and former student of Mr. Mazzeo's.
George
Post Edited (2008-01-22 02:57)
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Author: BFlatorelse
Date: 2008-01-22 04:31
George, Thank you kindly for your feedback and remarks. I aquired the after market keyset from Rosario and yes it did cost me a good amount to find and have my selected set of clarinets customized. As I say on the web page I am perhaps "lucky" to have gotten custom made parts and not the standard mechanism although I do think the clutch was a commercial option at one point. Rosario gave them to me in early 2005 but ge could have had them for some time before them as he hadn't worked with Selmer for some time.
I agree that at this point I wouldn't need the clutch today but when I first had the mechanism installed it was helpful as I had quite an active performing career and sometimes I wasn't quite ready. Today I would not want such a feature as I now would feel conflicted and disatisfied playing the standard fingerings over the break.
Even then back in the 80's I did know of the clarinetists that were enthusists including Mr. Friedman but not Dr. Thronhill. I was well aware of the Minnasota Orchestra clarinet section though. I did perform on my clarinets in orchestras and chamber ensembles with notable musicians but not on recordings that are available to the public so there are no sample of my playing. I must say conductors love the output and the possibilities!
On another point, I would never want to suggest that the clarinet "makes" the musician. Even if one had the best instrument they may never come close to being the best clarinetist. All it says is that the clarinetist was willing to look at differnet or perhaps a better way of what one does each day. I love my swifter!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-22 14:05
Since there has been great interest in "solving the mid-staff Bb problem" for years and several papers were given in Edinburgh recently, I should think that research in the ICA Journal "archives" would/should be a good idea. I will also. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-22 14:40
Let me hasten to add, that the National Music Museum [NMM] in Vermillion, SD [USD] has a donated/enlarged Mazzeo [etc.] collection, available, I believe, for research as indicated. Dr. Debbi Reeves, who authored one of the ["Bb"] papers last summer, celebrating the gift of the Shackleton collection to Scotland, I'm sure would be happy to help and is expert in this field. IMHO, well worth even a winter visit !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BFlatorelse
Date: 2008-01-22 16:36
Yes, I remember Rosario's colletion in cases and on pegs on the support beams of his living room. I was able to make some reeds for the olders one and play them. Very fun and informative.
I will have to try to get a hold of those Bb papers.
thanks,
susan
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-22 16:54
Its "one thing at a time, any more", I seem to have just erased my 3rd post re: Mazzeo's [5+] patents, is it retrievable, GBK? If not, the message was , make a Google Patent [or USPTO] search via Mazzeo [AND] clarinet. His "parent" US pat # is 2, 867,146. Happy reading, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-22 17:57
Susan, Looking into the NMM site, Maz Collection, Debbi made ref to her ICA March 1999 "Maz History" Review-Commentary, which prob. has more refs in it. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-01-22 18:10
The generous and erudite George Huba sent me the copies of the original patent Mazzeo System mechanism, one that I have played for many years, and seriously advocate, still. Its main problem was always the fact that no other company but Selmer made them or evinced interest. (William Wrezcian, formerly head of the woodwind department of NEC had a set made on Buffets, but he told me he lost track of them years ago)
I am not semi-retired, I am fully retired and have been for more than 10 years, but I still perform, one special piece whenever and wherever I have the opportunity, La Quatour Pour La Fin du Temps by Olivier Messiaen, my 16th time coming up this May in Montreal for the Centennial of Messiaen's birth.
Now, having said that, may I say that in constantly reviewing both clarinets and mechanisms to aid in the throat register, to make it facile and when necessary quite rapid, I have found a new addition which really bears investigation.
It is the ergonomic register key on Tom Ridenour's Lyrique" rubber clarinet.
When I received mine several weeks ago, I was put off by this key and got a "normal " key from Tom. In the interim, I started adjusting the given register key and found that it was and is much superior to any register key I have used, including Rosario's which was a normal register key. With one change, the single best improvement made to the clarinet I think that Rosario donated to us, and this is the covered thumb key. Forget about the opening by articulation of the third trill key, which was fine, no problem, it was and is the covered thumb that facilitated the whole operation, and it remains so.
With this ergonomic register key of Toms's, I am in the midst of recording some orchestral excerpts which are easier by maybe 50% with this key, and for the Debussy Rhapsody, it is a must.
Like rubber, don't ike rubber, whatever you like is OK, but this register key which hugs the thumb in an almost sensual embrace is truly wonderful.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2008-01-22 18:13)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-22 18:29
Sherman, Many TKS from me, and I'm sure many others, for this "discovery" of combined innovations, I'll [also] start my research project based on yours, and being fully retired [and aged as well] and needing challenges, will be happy to be busy. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2008-01-22 18:33
Interesting post. This mechanism looks similar in concept to what Steve Fox puts on his clarinets. His mechanism does not require you to change any fingerings, you finger Bb as normal and it automatically switches from the Register tube to a dedicated Bb tone hole. No thumb cap required either.
I just had him modify my personal horn with his Bb mechanism and I've been thrilled with it. The Bb sounds exactly like side Bb but is fingered like regular. I'll try to post some pics in the near future if there is an interest.
-Joe
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-01-22 20:52
Last July I asked here about such asymmetric/ergonomic register keys. They turn up on a number of instruments: besides the recent versions of the Lyrique, the TR147 at least in its later versions (but not the Arioso or early Lyriques, I'm sure there's a story there), and models by Marigaux, Hanson, Rossi, and Leblanc (Robert Lowry model); the Forte also has a "sculpted ergnomic register key" though it's not quite the same.
Here's a photo of the Marigaux key:
http://www.hochstrasser.org/wiki/files/Marigaux.RegKey2.jpg
the Lyrique:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/images/thumbkey.gif
the Hanson:
http://www.hansonclarinets.com/Workshop%20and%20showroom%20photos/Clarinet%20photos_files/SANY0023.jpg
and the Forte:
http://www.pro-music-news.com/html/11/40829for.jpg
I also saw a bass clarinet last year with a similar register key, but never found out what brand or model it was (or if it was a custom job).
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-22 21:45
Hi rsh- my Selmer 33 bass cl has a "sculpted" reg. key, in the manner of the Lowry, I'll check on my Sel alto cl, and others in our band. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BFlatorelse
Date: 2008-01-23 00:30
Thank you for all the links to pictures of modified register keys. Geez those Hanson clarinets are beautiful!
Rosario's "California Special" clarinets did have a modified register key. I liked it very much but he did not have one available. The modified register key tone hole makes a huge difference and was of greater value to my ear. The altissimo register greatly improved with the new register tube which I believe is longer than the non Mazzeo clarinets. They modified key would have just been icing on the cake.
I certainly agree with Sherman regarding the coverd thumb hole being one of the if not the most useful introduction. If nothing else have this modification done!
Joe, thank you for your post about Steve Fox and I would love to see pictures of the mechanism as I couldn't find one on his site. Thank you in advance.
Having said all of this and giving my experience with the Mazzeo Mech. It isn't just about improving the throat Bb. It's about fluidity of finger movement and all the optional fingerings for the Bb and A (he says 308+ in the "Mazzeo Clarinet Manual." This is what I love about his solution. Scales are so much more fluid and the there is much less wobble while playing due to the fact the the left hand is aloft while the right thumb is left hanging.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2008-01-23 01:59
BFlatorelse wrote:
> Having said all of this and giving my experience with the
> Mazzeo Mech. It isn't just about improving the throat Bb.
> It's about fluidity of finger movement and all the optional
> fingerings for the Bb and A (he says 308+ in the "Mazzeo
> Clarinet Manual." This is what I love about his solution.
> Scales are so much more fluid and the there is much less wobble
> while playing due to the fact the the left hand is aloft while
> the right thumb is left hanging.
I totally agree with the above statement. There are a lot of different ways to get a good throat Bb from just doing it well on a standard clarinet to using one modified with the Stubbins, Leblance, McIntyre, or Mazzeo mechanisms. It is the unique "smoothness" of the throat fingerings possible in the Mazzeo system that really define the "feel" of the instrument and its playing style and makes it a very unique solution.
My $.02.
George
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2008-01-23 02:08
Author: S. Friedland (---.dsl.bell.ca - ISP in Kanata, ON Canada)
Date: 2008-01-22 18:10
I am not semi-retired, I am fully retired and have been for more than 10 years, but I still perform, one special piece whenever and wherever I have the opportunity, La Quatour Pour La Fin du Temps by Olivier Messiaen, my 16th time coming up this May in Montreal for the Centennial of Messiaen's birth.
=======
Hey Sherman, if playing this "one special piece" 16 times and maintaining a highly acclaimed web site is "fully retired," I'd love to know what your work schedule was like when you were only semi-retired or fully employed! Seriously, let me note that your continued writing on your site during your retirement about clarinet issues in general, and areas of special knowledge like the Mazzeo system, Benny Goodman, and rubber clarinets, are one of the most valuable research resources generally available. Seems like you are working pretty hard to me. George
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2008-01-30 02:38
To this list of clarinets with asymmetric register keys, add the new Selmer Privilege. There's a photo on the Selmer France site but their stupid Flash based site design makes it impossible to give a link to the relevant page.
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-01-30 04:15
Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I keep busy and am now on my 515th entry on the site. Come visit.
sf
Post Edited (2008-01-30 04:22)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-30 07:27
Attachment: SelmerPrivilegeRegisterKey.jpg (5k)
> To this list of clarinets with asymmetric register keys, add the new Selmer
> Privilege. There's a photo on the Selmer France site but their stupid Flash
> based site design makes it impossible to give a link to the relevant page.
There ya go - I hope Selmer doesn't mind a bit of free advertising.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2008-01-30 07:28)
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