 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2008-01-13 16:19
To what extent is a clarinet's intonation fatal, uncorrectable?
I have a 1950s (?) Marigaux Bb that I always liked for tone, but the more I play it the more appalled I am at its pattern of intonation. When the throat tones have been brought in tune the lower clarion is sharp and then as you go up - POW! - A5 is really flat. Then C6 is sharp.
First off, I tested a number of different mouthpiece designs with it and decided to work mainly with a Chedeville model (a 1950s/60s QS) because SML used Chedeville blanks for their own branded mouthpieces. A small consideration, but every little bit helps here.
In the past I narrowed the path of the register key (restricted it) by building it up with tape. So the register key does not open too far from the vent. My understanding is that this has been done to (try and) bring the 12ths into better relationship.
But, I mean, does padding and corking work to correct some of these problems (a basic question, I realize)? Can a clarinet be "re-tuned" like a piano? Or is it more in mouthpiece selection?
The barrel is the original. Thanks. -Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2008-01-13 16:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-01-14 22:22
I always found tape to be a total drag in correcting an intonation fault..even just practicing it has a tendecy to fall out..usually in the middle of a phrase etc.
A clarinet can be re-voiced by a professional repairman..Brannen in Chicago does this thing very well and can even make a pretty bad instrument to begin with into something quite fine. Remember most major overhauls should also address the issue of tuning as well..pad heights and adjustments to key settings can do a great deal to alleviate tone and intonation faults..provided the set up also allows proper venting for the sound to emit correctly. Vytas and Greg Smith probably would know a lot more about the refined aspects of this element.
David Dow
Post Edited (2008-01-14 22:23)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: redwine
Date: 2008-01-14 23:14
Hello Bill,
My fabulous repairman, Wojtek Komsta, is visiting next weekend. If you'd like him to look at your instrument, he'd be glad to and unless you want work done, he won't charge you. He's a whiz with tuning and voicing. If you're interested, just contact me and I'll schedule you.
(disclaimer--I don't get any "juice" from Wojtek's work while he's visiting)
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2008-01-14 23:34
Wow - thanks Ben. OK, yes, I'd love to have him look at it. Thanks for your generosity.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2008-01-14 23:35
Also (to bring a ray of hope), I've read on this board from other repairpersons that the throat tones are easier to adjust independantly of the rest of the clarinet. Probably for the fact that the throat tones (G, Ab, A, Bb) don't really play any "twelfs" and therefore are really only tuned in one register without effecting (affecting?) other registers.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-01-15 00:35
The throat tones can in fact be adjusted somewhat independently of the rest of the instrument, by changing barrels as well as by tonehole alterations. On a number of occasions I've encountered clarinets that played high in pitch on the throat and upper clarion notes, and was able to fix this by using a barrel with a large bore, generally from a Boosey & Hawkes clarinet.
As for whether a clarinet can be 'hopeless' intonation-wise, I suppose some really are that bad, however.....a few years ago I had one that I had struggled with and finally given up on, an older Prueffer (3/4-Boehm) -- I actually took it partially apart and had it stored in my parts bin, when about a year later I decided to see if I could resurrect it. After considerably more work I finally got it to the point of "pitch respectability", and as it is a good clarinet in all other respects, it has become one of my regular players. Not sure it was worth the effort, but it was good practice for fixing intonation problems, that's for sure!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2008-01-15 05:03
Bill wrote:
"When the throat tones have been brought in tune the lower clarion is sharp and then as you go up - POW! - A5 is really flat. Then C6 is sharp".
That's a strange way to tune a clarinet! When you have FLAT throat tones it's probably the worst tuning scenario you can come up with.
Warm up your clarinet. Make sure the pitch on your tuner is A=440HZ (A=442 for European pitch). Tune your long B to A=440. Now you can check the entire pitch curve.
Bill wrote:
"Can a clarinet be "re-tuned" like a piano"?
No way! Each key on a piano represents a SINGLE note. On the clarinet it's a fundamental tone and a corresponding twelfth. The throat tones are not independent either. For instance if you rise the throat G you will automatically raise the throat A, if you raise the throat A it also will raise the throat Bb etc.
Tuning and voicing a clarinet is not a rocket science but it's not as easy as it seems. Even some of the top technicians have no clue how it's done. It's not about how to lower or raise a single note. It's about seeing a big picture and how your actions will affect the other notes of the pitch curve.
Bill wrote:
"So the register key does not open too far from the vent. My understanding is that this has been done to (try and) bring the 12ths into better relationship".
Basically this procedure will lower some notes in high clarion a bit.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2008-01-15 05:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bill
Date: 2008-01-15 12:56
Thanks Vytas! What I was saying above is that I tuned the throat tones to 440, but then the rest of the scale is off.
I once read here on this board, "Tune the throat tones" so that's what I do first.
Thanks for the interesting note. -Bill.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: coasten1
Date: 2008-01-15 17:05
I ended up getting a new clarinet because my older one was going bad. The 12ths were spreading. I was able to adjust when playing with a group but it isn't something you should have to do to extremes. My new clarinet's pitch is near dead on so I don't have to focus so much on fixing the pitch.
The real interesting situation was when I let another fellow clarinet player in band use my old clarinet temporarily and of course he didn't know where the intonation problems were. He really stood out with many bad pitch issues just playing as if it was his own clarinet.
If you have the option, try some good clarinets and compare how they are in tune compared to your clarinet. You will be able to tell how far off yours is.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-16 09:16
To the OP- I personally think that there is just about nothing that can't be fixed. If you really like that clarinet you should talk to a master tech that can fix everything for you. It may be costly, but it can be done.
As far as the throat tones- they are rather easy to tune and and if they are the main problem, then it's not so bad. Mouthpiecs and barrels can be made to bring 12ths in-tune on well-made instruments, too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-01-17 13:38
I disagree with Sky on this one..if you have a clarinet that is completely awful is it worth really spending more than the instrument is worth on costly repairs rather than buying a new one.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-01-17 13:43
David, I can't imagine even high-priced repair people (e.g. the Brannens) charging more to repair any clarinet than the inflated cost of any new professional-level clarinet! That would be multiple thousands of dollars, would it not?
Just like with automobiles --- almost any older (clarinet, car) can be very nicely rebuilt/fixed/modified/customized for less than the cost of a brand new (clarinet, car).
However.....the end result in either case (clarinet or automobile) may not have anywhere near the resale value of the new version -- that's the real issue, I think.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-18 03:11
I wrote- "If you really like that clarinet you should talk to a master tech that can fix everything for you. It may be costly, but it can be done."
and then David Dow wrote- "I disagree with Sky on this one..if you have a clarinet that is completely awful is it worth really spending more than the instrument is worth on costly repairs rather than buying a new one."
--
Well, I didn't say it was WORTH it. I just said it can be done.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-01-18 16:06
Let me clarify..if I spent 800 dollars on an R13 in 1978..and now put about the same amount on a major overhaul...where is my profit?
However, how others spend their money is no affair of mine. Unless the instrument is pretty amazing I would otherwise invest in a new one for professional work.
David Dow
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-18 16:48
D Dow wrote:
> However, how others spend their money is no affair of mine.
> Unless the instrument is pretty amazing I would otherwise
> invest in a new one for professional work.
Just think of Glenn Gould's chair.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-01-18 17:11
Golly, David, if you are looking at profit (were you to sell the clarinet), with $800 initial cost + $800 overhaul, you should have a horn that would bring well over your $1,600 investment.
But, also the 30 year old purchase price might be considered a sunk cost because of its age and the intrinsic value of 30 years of useage and enjoyment (i.e. fully depreciated long ago), in which case, as a practical matter, your cost basis would be only the more recent overhaul cost.
But, then, what is the present value of $800 spent 30 years ago?
. . . oh, well, what the heck . . .
Eu
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2008-01-18 17:42
My King Marigaux - along with a 1974 Fs/n Buffet, both require a two-step tuning process. I tune the throat tones at the barrel/UJ junction, and then tune the clarion at the UJ/LJ junction. That's how I get my best results.
BTW, modern instruments seem to be manufactured so that only a change in barrels is needed to "convert" from 440 to 442 to 444 - or at least that's what the marketing seems to imply. I know my Buffet is 442/444 (why don't they know?), and I would not be surprised if the Marigaux was manufactured to European standards as well. I wish these instruments could be "converted" with a barrel change, but I just don't see how that can happen. It makes me wonder what, if anything, has actually changed in manufacturing clarinets at different tuning points.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-18 18:27
Fred wrote:
> BTW, modern instruments seem to be manufactured so that only a
> change in barrels is needed to "convert" from 440 to 442 to 444
> - or at least that's what the marketing seems to imply. I know
> my Buffet is 442/444 (why don't they know?), and I would not be
> surprised if the Marigaux was manufactured to European
> standards as well. I wish these instruments could be
> "converted" with a barrel change, but I just don't see how that
> can happen. It makes me wonder what, if anything, has actually
> changed in manufacturing clarinets at different tuning points.
As a layperson re tuning and as a member of the "442 Hz Club" and proud owner of a Marigaux I can confirm your observations. At 442 ever so slightly flat, at 440 ever so slightly sharp, you need at least a suitable mouthpiece plus some lipping and alternate fingerings (ieg no "pinch throat Bb" for long tones) to stay reasonably in tune. If you are sharp, then by all means pull barrel *and* joints. Tuning rings - once settled on a specific size - are a good investment because they alleviate wobbling and other adverse conditions.
Theoretically, 440 vs 442 requires the tone holes to be at (ever so slightly) different spots. Pulling barrel and joints is just an approximation.
On the other hand, unless you're solo-ing but rather have a trumpet section wailing in your back, tuning is one of the lesser issues you are confronted with.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
