 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Sang1Lee
Date: 2008-01-03 21:15
do they use different mouthpieces?
like.. would a vandoren mouthpiece not work well?
and, where could one try these clarinets?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-03 21:49
I know that some manufacturers use(d) a slightly smaller socket on the barrel, so that a standard mouthpiece doesn't fit. But I am not sure whether or not this applies to modern instruments as well.
And I am pretty sure that the innards of the mouthpiece (bore, chamber, baffle, whatever) are different as well, to match what comes further down in the musical food chain.
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Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-03 21:54
You can get Vandoren mouthpieces made specifically for German clarinets.
If you want to take the plunge, Yamaha make good German (and Oehler) system clarinets that are more costly than their Boehm system equivalents (going by Yamaha's model numbers - 400, 600 and 800 series in both Boehm and German/Oehler), though much more affordable than the top German makes. Jupiter also make several German and Oehler systems as well.
If you want to try out German clarinets, the best bet is taking a trip to Germany as that's where they're plentiful. The fingering is largely the same as simple system (or Albert system) but with a lot more keys and vents, and like oboes, you get more keywork when you spend more money, eg. the student German systems have around 15-18 keys and 4-5 rings, Intermediate clarinets have around 20-22 keys and 6 rings and the Oehler systems having up to 27 keys (if not more) and 5 rings.
Here's a list of German clarinet makers to start your research:
http://www.cs.ru.nl/~bolke/DuitseKlar/oehlerlistOld.html
And the sort of money you'll be expected to part with for them:
http://www.holzblaeser.com/site.html Click on Preise/Produkte for klarinetten.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-01-03 22:05)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2008-01-03 21:55
The few remaining makers of German instruments in the Oehler system are small, and the instruments VERY expensive.
You'll need an entirely different mouthpiece to tune properly.
The Yamaha company makes a German bore clarinet in the French Boehm keywork, also quite expensive.
My impression of the German style clarinet was that they're very resistant, tune well and lacked flexibility in tone color. Dynamically, they have tremendous contrast capability but the sound was homogenous.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-03 22:25
> The few remaining makers of German instruments in the Oehler system are
> small, and the instruments VERY expensive.
This is not necessarily true. Amati makes reasonably-priced German-style clarinets (and it looks like they're not all that uncomm in Germany or Austria). You may or may not like their finish, but even if you count in another 100..200$ to get it "custom tweaked" by your favourite technician, they're a bargain, comparably at least.
Of course, the relatively small production numbers won't make any "German" clarinet a Bundy-priced no-brainer. Exclusivity has its price.
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Ben
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2008-01-03 23:48
Yes they do use different mouthpieces, and depending on the manufacturer, they may or may not supply you with the right barrel for a French mouthpiece, like for instance, my French mouthpieces are too loose for the German clarinet barrels, and the French mouthpieces tend to flatten the throat notes as well.
Vandoren makes German mouthpieces, known as the VD series. If you got all the money to splash, I last recall that there's a pair of Fritz Wurlitzer clarinets, Oehler system for sale at Howarth, or is it gone Chris P?
Chan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-04 10:06
I think they're still there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-04 12:36
Re: Amati...I had one in the shop one time and I thought it was pretty awful. I have not played many Oehler clarinets and was told not to judge them by this model when I asked a friend.
John
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-04 13:19
> Re: Amati...I had one in the shop one time and I thought it was pretty awful.
...how old? I understand Amati improved a lot in the last few years.
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Ben
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-01-04 15:09
A colleague uses a German mouthpiece on his Selmer 9 for jazz playing. With rubber O-rings for a lig instead of a "shoelace". I think that it interchanges with his other (French) mouthpieces with no problem.
He pulls out his German set up with its #5 reeds when he needs to drown out the trombone in his dixie group.
Currently, there is a discussion thread on the Yahoo Mouthpiece Work site on German mouthpieces. One fellow reported (some confusing) measurements of the lay on one particular German mouthpiece. It has an extremely long lay, a small tip opening and is very loud.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-04 15:46
I know a B&H 1010/Louis 'Draper Model' player that uses a VD3 with them as his mouthpiece of choice.
I think German mouthpieces are generally meant to have a concave table (even though the Vandoren German one I tried was completely flat), so the best ligs are either string or fabric (eg. Rovner or BG) and definitely not metal ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-01-04 16:29
I have a nice F. Arthur Uebel Oehler-system clarinet which I acquired a few months ago and have been playing fairly regularly, and contrary to the statement of Herr S. Botch (with whom I rarely disagree) I've been able to play it quite nicely with any of my better French-style mouthpieces. You can confirm that with Mr. Larry Bocaner who tooted a few notes on the instrument with his own (French-type) mouthpiece, and I can assure you he sounded excellent (and very much in tune) with that setup.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-01-04 21:01
At the moment I’m playing a Viotto German MP with my Chadash Bb and R13 A. The model has been shortened by 2 mm and the tenon has been changed to fit the socket. No other changes have been done and it’s the best MP I’ve ever had. I’m using White Master 4 ½.
Alphie
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-01-06 02:35
And my English Boosey & Hawkes clarinet sounds fine with a French-made Vandoren German-style mouthpiece, using Spanish Olivieri reeds and an American Luyben ligature.
I'm ready for the United Nations.....................
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2008-01-06 21:51
I also have to say that the German clarinets are not necessarily so expensive. I think Dörfler clarinets are very competitively priced. Also, I believe that Yamaha makes a German bore clarinet with boehm system keywork. I believe a number of German manufacturers will do the same on order. Of course any German instrument will be a bit expensive at the moment if you're using dollars to buy them. But this is not due to the instruments being particularly expensive just the dollar being particularly low.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-01-07 08:52
Bubalooy wrote: "Of course any German instrument will be a bit expensive at the moment if you're using dollars to buy them. But this is not due to the instruments being particularly expensive just the dollar being particularly low."
I think the implication of this post is that German clarinets are not really more expensive than French. If so, this is nonsense. Most German-style clarinets are made in Germany and priced in Euros. Most French-style clarinets are made in France and priced in Euros. Their pricing in US dollars, for those who care, is affected equally by exchange rates.
But let's take Bubalooy's mention of Dörfler clarinets as an example. Dörfler summarise their prices as "ab Euro 1490,- bis Euro 3990,- ". If we compare these with a well-known English retailer, whose site gives prices in Euro as an alternative to sterling, we find that 1490 Euro will buy us an E13 with a good deal of change left over. 3990 Euros will buy us a Tosca, again with change to spare. So, not incontrovertible proof that German instruments are more expensive than French. But it does suggest that a German beginner's instrument costs more than an E13, and a good but not stellar pro-quality instrument more than a Tosca.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-07 13:38
It was in the last year. Admitedly, most of our problems with Amati across the board are the way they are set up from the factory. Once you correct this they are...OK. The other problem is that I have never played on a good Oehler system clarinet so my reference is lacking. I really think it was just a lousy sounding clarinet.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-07 16:26
Bubalooy, what I mean with the pricing differences between German and Boehms made by the same company is that a Boehm system of a certain level (take the Yamaha 650) and an equivalent Oehler system (Yamaha 657), you'll find the Oehler system a lot more expensive in comparison, due to the higher cost of production of Oehlers, and the smaller demand worldwide for them.
The YCL-650 (Boehm system) is €1285 and the YCL-657 (Oehler system) is €3455 (prices taken from Die Holzblaeser's site), so it's a significant price difference betwen them even though they're of the same equivalent model level in the lineup. Same applies to the 400 and 800 series clarinets - the German/Oehler system 400 or 800 series is much more expensive in comparison to it's Boehm system 400 or 800 series equivalent.
Though Yamaha don't make a plastic (or composite) 200 series simplified German system for beginners (and not many companies do - but there are Chinese ones seen on eBay). If they did, it'd most likely weigh in at more than the cost of the equivalent YCL-250.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-07 19:59
I have a few questions that you may be able to answer.
Is the 'German bore' that people refer to independent of the scale system and what are it's characteristics? Does it have a polycylindrical feature? Do you believe that the 'German sound' is more a product of teaching, Oehler, or a little bit of both? I personally know the sound through the recording of S. Meyer, Leister, and Barenboim recordings and I love it, especially Sabine.
Have you trained yourself to play on an Oehler system clarinet and if so is it very difficult to make the switch?
Thanks
John
PS: The Blu Tack has really been a wonderful tool for me in many ways. I found a ton of leaks in the Selmer Paris oboe I was working on but was able to really get it sealing well. I have not started the undercutting experiment as of yet but it is still in the works.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-07 21:27
"Have you trained yourself to play on an Oehler system clarinet and if so is it very difficult to make the switch?"
I have taught myself Oehler system to a degree, but I'm still not confident enough to use it solely in a concert, but playing things like the Schumann and Brahms on the Oehler adds something special to the mix - I don't know if it's psychological or what, but there's definitely a difference in how I feel about playing them on an Oehler than on my Boehms.
But as far as the fingering goes, it's swings and roundabouts as some things are much easier on Oehler than on Boehm, and vice versa. Most basic fingerings from a simple/Albert system fingering chart work, though on Oehlers there's a lot of extras with all the extra keywork so there's ways of getting yourself out of difficulty if (for example) you happen take upper register F with the 'wrong' fingering when it's followed by an E, Eb or D (there are three ways of playing F in the upper register on Oehlers, Boehms only have the one). But you soon learn passages with the most suitable fingering to keep things as smooth as possible.
Though I do have some trouble getting around things with the lower register F (just below the throat notes) as it needs to be taken with the side F key for clarity of tone (xoo|Fooo) - the forked fingering doesn't work so well in the lower register as it's a bit on the fuzzy side. But in the upper register you don't get the fuzzyness and the forked Bb (xox|ooo) and top C (oxo|ooo) have much more warmth to them than the short fingerings (and in comparison to the same notes on Boehms)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2008-01-21 21:10
NorberttheParrot wrote, "1490 Euro will buy us an E13 with a good deal of change left over. 3990 Euro will buy us a Tosca again with change to spare".
I assume that Buffet has some instruments between those prices, which would then be the same price as the German clarinets I mentioned. I didn't say that the German instruments were cheap, or cheaper, only that they were competitively priced. Also, as they aren't typically exported to the US the Euro/ Dollar exchange rate becomes an issue, there are better and worse times financially to buy German instruments. When I moved here the Dollar was stronger than the Euro so by comparison to today, some bargains could be found. Of course economies of scale play to the side of the Boehm. I haven't played either a Tosca or a 3990 Euro Tosca so I wouldn't comment on whether either of them is "stellar". I certainly wouldn't want to insinuate that either of them was not.
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