 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2008-01-06 01:18
Please allow me to vent -
I teach elementary band students. I warn families every year about avoiding cheap, junky clarinets found in department stores. Well, many don't listen because they expect their child to quit anyway. Besides, they need the money for more important things like Guitar Hero.
So along comes little Kevin who says his clarinet doesn't work, and I am of course supposed to fix it. The springs are not attached in any way - they are just LAYING in the clarinet. They work only by tension and can be pushed out practically by breathing on them. It's hard to explain unless you see it - but the keys have only the illusion of a hole in which a spring fits - it's merely a depression in which the "end" of the spring rests, then you place the spring in the correct place, and if you are lucky, it stays for a while.
What a piece of junk. The manufacturer should be put out of business.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-01-06 12:11
Those junkers turn up at flea markets every year in the fall, shortly after school starts in the USA. The kid takes the CSO (clarinet-shaped object) to the first day of band practice. The teacher rolls his or her eyes and begs the parents to go buy the kid a real clarinet from a real music store. The parents try to trade in the CSO and discover that the real music store wants nothing to do with it. Out it goes to the yard sale, where the flea market pickers shop. Some hapless customer thinks the $60 clarinet looks like a real bargain and another family gets stuck...
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-01-06 14:36
What a beautiful example of the effects of information asymmetry on market behavior, Lelia.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2008-01-06 14:37)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-06 16:12
I too wonder why 1st time buyers don't go after those 20$ Bundies and Vitos - at the very least they are serviceable and time-tested...
The only part of a CSO that might be usable is the barrel (contains no moving parts...oops, I forgot the two rings ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) ).
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-01-06 18:26
>> I too wonder why 1st time buyers don't go after those 20$ Bundies and Vitos - at the very least they are serviceable and time-tested... <<
I think it's because they are old and used and many people have the impression new is always ok. Also I'm guessing many people don't want to bother with looking on eBay and see what they should get (and for people in countries like ours, when you include shipping, tax and repair it isn't necessarily that cheap anymore). Or worse, waste a lot of time browing the internet forums (like this one) to find out what's what, who's who, why's why. They prefer to move right to the end of the game and guess it was Mr. Clari in the music room with a CSO only to realize they were wrong and forgot to eliminate all the other suspects (sorry, flashback moment).
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2008-01-06 19:43
Susan, I suspect we can't help people who won't help themselves. Don't stress over it too much, I know that can be hard. But do help those who are open to listening. Teaching for a living must be hard...
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
Post Edited (2008-01-06 19:46)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2008-01-06 20:06
3dogmom, we need the brand name of that junk clarinet . . . if it isn't on the list that GBK referred you to, then maybe it should be added.
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2008-01-06 22:33
GUILTY! When Emily wanted to play clarinet, we bought a brand new CSO or Christmas. (It is on the above mentioned list-an illustrious Sky). We then found her a teacher and she took lessons through the spring and summer. That fall she started her first year in band at school and made first chair using her CSO in the second year band. Well, it didn't take long for the thing to fall apart. Her fingers would sparkle after each playing-as the "plating" came off. Her band teacher and private teacher were both constantly "adjusting" the mechanism. Finally dear old dad started researching here and elsewhere. Yes, I ended up on ebay, but she is now playing a Buffet C-12; professionally overhauled.
I must say that I never felt bad about spending money on the CSO since I did not know if she would even continue to play. I do feel bad for her teachers, though! Of course, they are very pleased with her current setup, so I guess it worked out in the end!
BTW, I recently bought her a Selmer 1400 (off that auction site) to use in marching band (yes, I have read what many of you think of that!). It actually cost me less than the Sky, and is a far better horn. The one consolation is that had I bought that first she may not have the Buffet!
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2008-01-06 23:16
<<<I must say that I never felt bad about spending money on the CSO since I did not know if she would even continue to play.>>>
Sorry, but this is really not right. You and other parents should feel bad about this.
First of all, it's not really the responsibility of the teacher to be an instrument repair person. Secondly, it's well known that the reason a LOT of kids quit is that their instruments don't function correctly, and they become enormously frustrated and discouraged. You were lucky, having a teacher that went above the call of duty, doing service that's not part of their job. Had that not happened, your daughter most likely would have been discouraged, and WOULD have quit.
When it comes to school programs, funds for band/orchestra teachers are limited in a lot of districts because citizens want to keep property taxes low. Instructors often run programs at multiple schools. Time needs to be spent teaching music, not repairing hopelessly awful bargain-basement instruments that barely play.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2008-01-06 23:29
Students learning the clarinet have a hard enough time with the mechanics of playing, embouchure, air control, etc. IMO it is not a good idea to start them on a CSO and hope that they will have the interest and fortitude to continue for any length of time before giving them an instrument that will not hold them back or make playing more difficult. I would venture that every success story such as Emily's Dad is countered by multitudes of failures of the student continuing to learn the clarinet. It is also unfair to depend, or even expect music teachers - either private or in school - to spend valuable time adjusting a piece of junk that will sooner than later fail again. Many teachers, to their credit, will refuse to allow students to bring CSOs to lessons or school. You can tell the frustration of 3Dogmom with the CSO invasion. Education is the key and new private students and school students should be warned about the end results of buying a CSO, and IMO, banning them from the education system. But, one must be careful of the wording - a la Brook Mays unfortunate lawsuit with First Act.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-01-06 23:46
My daughter's school had a list of recommended clarinets,a nd they were all decent beginner horns from major makers: Vitos, Selmers, Buffet B-series, etc. We started her out with lessons and her mom's Evette Master Model. It paid off in spades!
Now she has an R13 Bb (my old horn) and will be getting a really nice A from Walter Grabner (to replace the school's loaner) in the next couple of days. I shudder to think how discouraged she might have become if we, as parents, had not known something about clarinets, and had fallen victim to the lure of a cheap CSO.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2008-01-06 23:57
My view on this is that a beginning student needs the BEST possible instrument, for several of the reasons above. An experienced player can accommodate an inferior instrument, but not a young beginner. I generally recommend that students get an older, well-maintained instrument and advise them that they can get most of their money back (often I will 're-buy' these back from them) if the student loses interest, unlike a CSO that can no longer be coaxed to play at all which is now worth $0 unless you are as unscrupulous as the manufacturer.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2008-01-07 01:13
It looks like a new one, folks: Primo.
I do provide a list of suggested brands. Not one parent has ever inquired, unlike JJAlbrecht. I do know, however, how many parents have bragged to me how they got a clarinet "real cheap".
You know, it's one thing for parents to be ripped off. But what really hurts is seeing this little boy waiting expectantly for me to fix his clarinet. I just can't be the one to tell him that his clarinet is junk. It would be too painful for him to hear that from me. As far as he knows, he owns a wonderful thing. So, yes, in that circumstance, it is my job to fix it, because I know what will happen if he takes it to a shop - they won't fix it. And he won't play any more, because no one will buy him another one. That is the real tragedy.
LeeB, as others have stated, you were lucky in your daughter' s case, but others have not been so lucky or tenacious. Many never make it past the stage of equipment failure.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2008-01-07 03:00
I understand your frustration perfectly if you are a teacher, but let me add a few comments. First, like many parents we knew nothing about clarinet. At the time we puchased the CSO we did not have a private teacher in mind and Emily was not even taking band classes. Had she been in a band class, we would probably have rented from the local music store like 95% of the other students in her band. Then she may have never gotten what she has now. This was something SHE wanted to play and we made the opportunity available for her. Second, I am NOT recommending others do what we did. Yes, it would be wonderful if all students could start on professional horns, but realistically folks, how many students will continue playing past their school years? Look at the other great sector of public education-sports. They receive alot more money than most band programs, most parents spend a lot more money on equipment and few student ever become professionals in their sport, or even continue to play past high school.
This argument could be made in every avenue of endeavor. Sure there are always better instruments, tools, vehicles or equipment available. You could say I never became an auto mechanic because I never had the right equipment, I never became a carpenter because I never had the tools to do it correctly, and so on. I also understand that most on this board are passionate about what they do (as they should be)-but as in all areas of life we find that not everyone shares our passion. I think if a child is really passionate about what they want to do they will overcome the adversity of the inferior equipment until they are able to get something better.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2008-01-07 03:35
This all reminds me of something that Karl Leister said during a masterclass. He said to get the most expensive instrument because it was the cheapest. If you buy a cheap instrument you must upgrade and upgrade and upgrade, and in the end you have one good pro clarinet but you have spent enough money for two. But, If you buy an expensive instrument from the start, then you won't need another for years and in the end you have actually spent less money.
Good idea, but not practical for everyone, unfortunately.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-01-07 19:11
I got curious about some of these CSOs and looked some up. One touts having "17 Bb Keys", but the picture must be too small to see all of them. Now THAT would give you some options for the throat note problem - Mazzeo would be envious! Another feature was "Nickel Plated Body". I played a black nickel Keilwerth sax and it had just amazing tone and response. So, perhaps on the basis of these claims, it could be a rather interesting horn. My only question is - what wattage bulb does it take?
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2008-01-07 21:12
I don't mean to be hard on anyone, but in these days of the internet, it only takes 15 minutes to check out just about anything. When parents brag to their band teacher about how little they spent, without knowing what they just bought (as 3dogmom reports), they are indicating that they don't really give a hoot about what they just bought. My daughter plays my old Signet, so she has a decided advantage, but when she found a flute at a yard sale, she had to wait to buy it until I concluded that it wasn't an FSO, which took all of 10 minutes. She bought it with her own money (and later bought Guitar Hero with her own money too, by the way). If your kid is going into band (or any other extra curricular activity) it's only reasonable to spend a little time and get decent (but not necessarily expensive) equipment. Our daughter's first Irish Dance dress was well researched, and neither of us knew anything about Irish Dance dresses when we started. She loves dance and has stuck with it, but if she hadn't, we could have (and eventually did) sell that dress for most of what we had in it. While you won't do as well with a used clarinet, a Vito or Signet is at least sellable, unlike the many CSOs out there, which nobody will touch.
Emily's Dad is in a bit of a different position, since he had no direction available. But all too many parent's get direction and ignore it. That's true not just in Band, but many other areas as well.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2008-01-08 01:17
I am a parent as well and I completely understand a parent's reluctance to invest in the "best" possible equipment for what is essentially a ten year old's whim. I really do. My kids used to figure skate, hooh boy. And they were in band, as well. I didn't go out and buy my horn player a professional horn, or my clarinet player a professional clarinet. They had decent student quality instruments. Although, come to think of it, my clarinet playing daughter almost quit because of the high rings on her Selmer 1400. She couldn't seal the holes.
It is true that if you don't have carpentry tools, you can't become a carpenter. I would maintain that if you have a CSO, you also do not have a tool and therefore are unlikely to become successful at the clarinet. LeeB's daughter notwithstanding - I understand that situation perfectly.
I don't even expect parents in the town in which I teach to do their own investigations. That's not the demographic for the most part. That's why I make information, and myself, available. I'm deluged with calls every fall (can little Johnny use his Uncle Fred's clarinet, etc.), as I'm sure all teachers are. I want my students to be successful, happy, and play for a long time because they are successful and happy. I don't expect them to become professional clarinetists, that's for sure.
You can't play the clarinet on an unplayable clarinet. And SOME of these are unplayable.
Sue Tansey
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-01-08 01:47
Sue- you make some excellent points. I agree completely that you cannot make music or play on an unplayable instrument. I wish more people understood that. They think that they are saving a few bucks to wait and see if their child will be interested. In many cases, the child never becomes interested because they never had the chance to actually see what it was like to play a real instrument that works. It is a terrible shame.
I also laughed at your "Guitar Hero" comment. I am always amazed at the number of parents I see who wouldn't think of spending a few extra dollars on a decent instrument, a quality mouthpiece, or a few private lessons. These very same kids have some $100 sneakers, or the latest video game device, a top iPod, etc. In some cases, I know students in school who don't have the money for the instrument, reeds, etc., and then tell me about the electric guitar they own and the lessons they are taking on that.
It seems that it is always an uphill battle and not getting any easier. Keep trying!
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Author: reedhead72
Date: 2008-01-08 02:00
While I do agree with LeeB's comment, "it's not really the responsibility of the teacher to be an instrument repair person" I disagree with the sentiment. It IS the responibility of the teacher to be just that- a teacher.
When I first took up clarinet in school, the instuctor took me and the other clarinet players aside at one point and showed us "the basics". How to install and seat a pad, how to reset a slipped spring, how to cork a tenon and how to do very basic adjustments. He also pulled aside every other section to teach them basic repairs of thier respective instruments.
The result was just what I'm sure he had hoped for. He had an orchestra of 70 or so players who all could do minor repairs on thier own instuments, saving him time and our parents money.
Granted, I'm sure I was lucky to have a great teacher, and I realize that not everyone who takes up an instrument will be so lucky, but doesn't it make sense if a band instructor is frustrated with doing repairs of instruments that he teach his students to do said repairs themselves?
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2008-01-08 02:17
Thanks, reedhead72. When I was in grade school band and wanted to play the saxophone, my father rented one from the local music store. Interesting thing looking back, I put the mouthpiece on upsidedown, AND THE BAND TEACHER NEVER SHOWED ME THE CORRECT WAY! He had probably been teaching for some 35 years! Guess who DOESN'T play a saxophone today (or any other instrument, for that matter). You guessed it. That's why when my daughter's who are much more musically inclined than their father want to play music, I do what I can to help them be successful. It's been a journey for us, but we are all learning. I'd say that going from a Sky CSO to a Buffet C-12, Moenning Barrel, Hite "M" mouthpiece with Rue Lepic 56 reeds in a year and half is a pretty accelerated trip. Now my daughter is the one who says "Dad, you don't need to buy me anything else!
BTW, Skygardener quoting Karl Leister said; "If you buy an expensive instrument from the start, then you won't need another for years and in the end you have actually spent less money." Anyone read the thread concerning "A players epiphany-why collect more horns?"
Post Edited (2008-01-08 02:17)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-01-08 02:37
Reedhead says:
Quote:
While I do agree with LeeB's comment, "it's not really the responsibility of the teacher to be an instrument repair person" I disagree with the sentiment. It IS the responibility of the teacher to be just that- a teacher.
...... but doesn't it make sense if a band instructor is frustrated with doing repairs of instruments that he teach his students to do said repairs themselves?
There are times when the school band director ends up giving up prep time or teaching time and instead using the time to try to make an instrument workable to enable a student to get by. In some cases, these instruments are beyond what the director may be able to do, or has time for, but makes the decision to go that route to try to help a student, rather than lose that student. That time could better be used teaching musical skills or for other educational purpose.
Sure, it is great to teach some basic preventative work, but often these junky instruments take the advanced skills of a good repairman and are more than a director can handle, much less a student. Let's remember you mention installing and seating pads, corking tenons, and doing adjustments. I believe this thread began talking about elementary students. This is well beyond what I would expect them being able to do.
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Author: LeeB
Date: 2008-01-08 03:57
<<<I believe this thread began talking about elementary students. This is well beyond what I would expect them being able to do.>>>
Exactly. It's possible there would be some gifted and handy 10-12 year olds that could repair their own instruments, but I sure wouldn't count on it.
Not everyone has the aptitude for that kind of mechanical work at a young age, and they could just as easily make things much worse.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-01-08 18:31
Lee, some people continue NOT to have the aptitude well into "responsible" adulthood!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: D
Date: 2008-01-08 18:47
I wanted to say that surely people wouldn't spend several hundred quid on something without doing any research. You wouldn't buy a cooker or a computer without doing so. But then I remembered my parents did the exact same thing when I was at school. My present for passing my exams way better than we thought I would (and a b'day pressie too) was a sax. Excellent. Would have been better if they had done a little research first though! I'm still struggling with the blasted thing. This was a preinternet number of years ago, so things weren't quite so easy, but I do think a little more research than "here is a music shop - hello Mr shopkeeper what is your cheapest alto" would have been appropriate!
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-01-08 19:39
D, unfortunately, many folks still make major purchases without doing any research at all. That's why dreadfully inadequate stores like "Best Buy" do so well here in the States! People who know absolutely nothing about (fill in the blank) go to a Big Box store like Best Buy and purchase a high-dollar item, based solely on the recommendation of the idiot kid working there, who rarely has a clue what's what, and besides that, rarely cares to learn what the customer really needs.
Unfortunately, the vendors of cheap CSOs and the like are just as bad. ![[mad]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie9.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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