 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2008-01-02 01:59
Tonight I watched PBS's broadcast of the Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Concert and noted that neither clarinetist was using a Boehm system instrument. What's up with that?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-01-02 03:39
They were probably using either Wurlitzer or Hammerschmidt clarinets ...GBK
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2008-01-02 04:15
You also might've noted that most of the wind players use "odd" instruments. That orchestra has a long tradition of using instruments different to those found in most other orchestras. Those clarinets are actually probably the most common differentiating factor, as they are found in most German and Austrian orchestras. In particular, I think the oboes used in that orchestra are a different system from those found in any other orchestra in the world.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-01-02 06:00
many auditions in Germany and Austria are advertised with "kein Boehm" as one of the requirements.
this means- "we are not interested in musicians who have chosen to play the french system clarinet"
On D-Welle i reccently saw the DSO play Brahms 4th, the clarinet players both used Oehler system, and made a distinctive sound that would be difficult to achieve on Buffet. Good for them, i say.
dn
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2008-01-02 06:43
I say this once again: Few years ago there was a audition at the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra in Amsterdam. One of the requirements was that you should play Würlitzer Reform-Boehm or you would get 6 months to change. Almost all of the players that got to round two played on French Boehm clarinets.
Just listen to George Pieterson that sounds very British and then the current 1st clarinetist in the orchestra and you will see that the instrument doesn't mean everything.
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Author: Clarinetcola
Date: 2008-01-02 11:45
There was this banner that had detailed info of the orchestra outside the concert hall when they performed in Hong Kong years ago. It mentioned that the players use different instruments, eg. timpani made of special skin, narrow bore & smaller bell trombones. I believe clarinets and other wwinds employed other systems such as those mentioned above.
n
Nathan
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-01-02 13:58
If you noticed they were also playing rotary valve trumpets and strangly plumbed French horns.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-01-02 14:07
Astute observations above, friends, yes I noticed the tpts first, then the oboes and clarinets, wondered about the Fr H's. Most of the time I watched/wondered about the conducting, how I might respond to his "style" of direction, fascinating. Enjoyed hearing a number of Strausses I didn't know of. AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2008-01-02 14:11
Any women in the orchestra these days?
I have stopped watching them for a while now, because they have been so sexist in the past....
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-01-02 14:22
The harp player and one violin was all I noticed.
It should be noted that these guys are not only sexist but bigots too, however, they do get to elect their own conductor. That might be the reason for his very non-conducting style. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Pr%C3%AAtre
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
Post Edited (2008-01-02 14:56)
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2008-01-02 16:30
Thanks for these most informative replies. I did see the other "odd" instruments. I also thought I counted three women: the harpist, one in the viola section and one back in the second or third violins. At least that's a big improvement over prior years! Beyond that, apart from the producer's fixation with crown jewels, interior architecture, horses and weired ballet costumes, it was good to hear that lovely sound. Also, maybe next year they could use the lively and engaging Renee Fleming instead of not-quite-on-it Walter?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-01-02 17:47
I watched the Vienna clarinetists carefully and didn't see a Boehm instrument. The principal player's clarinet definitely had German keywork. I loved the concert. It was even more gemutlich than previous years.
rmr25 - Did you really like Renee Fleming's announcements for the NY Philharmonic broadcast? I though she gushed terribly -- almost as bad as the extremely boring concert. Uncle Walter is clearly in his dotage, but he still brings it off, and he's become a tradition.
Ken Shaw
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Author: donald
Date: 2008-01-02 18:30
re "Iceland Clarinet" "i say this once again"
Vienna and Amsterdam are some distance apart both geographically and musically.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-02 19:30
Indeed - mechanically more simpler than Oehlers (probably the same mechanical spec as the 21 or 22 key German system clarinets) they have all ring keys for the fingers and without the LH F/C key on the top joint (not sure if they have the low E-F vent mechanism for the right thumb), though they do play on a very close mouthpiece and I think the bore might be larger than on German clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2008-01-02 20:50
Ken:
I did see Renee Fleming "gushing" at the NY Philharmonic broadcast. But it didn't annoy me. Beverly Sills often gushed too, but she was still terrific. I'll take some gush --even some excessive gush -- any time over Uncle Walter's transfixed stare at the teleprompter. Withall, the Vienna concerts are always special, no matter who does the commenting.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-01-03 15:31
Here is an article from their own web site describing the Viennese sound and the instruments.
http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=viennese_sound
The key issue is not what they do to achieve their sound but rather what they’ve never done to change it. The instruments are basically slightly developed “classical style” instruments. They have never been reformed such as the oboe, the clarinet, the French horn and the rest of the brass instruments and percussion have. So frankly, it’s the rest of the world’s orchestras that sound different and not the Vienna Phil. One advantage using these instruments is that they rarely have any balance problems within the orchestra. On top of this comes their stylish playing. Read especially what it says about vibrato.
Alphie
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-03 16:37
I seemed to notice that the tympani were not the typical bowl shape but rather truncated cylinders. Agree that Walter should hang it up along with Dick Clark.
Bob Draznik
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Author: rmr25
Date: 2008-01-03 20:48
Alphie:
Thanks for posting the VPO site. I wish I'd had brains enough to seek it early on. It pretty much says it all.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-03 21:45
It used to be more informative, going into much better detail about the instruments. Though when they redo their site I hope they put all that back on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-01-03 21:46
...and here's a link to the Institute for Viennese Sound Style. Apparently they're the scientific backbone of the VPO and others who claim to preserve that "typical" sound style.
(For some reason, I was reminded of that Gary Larson cartoon with the dogs and the doorknobs, but that happens also when I read about other scientific works in that field. And it looks as if I weren't alone.)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-04 10:05
They'd most likely use a Heckel-built contra, and a narrow-bore German-style bass clarinet.
They have Vienese cors anglais too (probably old Zulegers) to match their oboes.
I did hear a while back one of the harpists plays a Salvi harp instead of a Horngacher/Obermeyer.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2008-01-04 11:49
Now in the Karl Bohm video they are using rotary valve french horns same goes for a Beethoven #5 concert on youtube.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-01-04 12:44
"they are using rotary valve french horns"
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anybody. You're not supposed to notice.
Officially they use the Vienna horn, with three double-piston valves, all the time. These can be crooked in F for the best tone-quality, or in Bb-alto for greater security and/or in high-lying parts like Beethoven 7 where the Bb instrument produces a more appropriate sound. The valve slides must be changed to match the crook.
These horns produce the traditional Viennese sound, but are notoriously treacherous. Therefore the players will switch to ordinary German horns, with four rotary valves, for difficult passages where the consequences of an error would outweigh the change in tone quality. Why they are using them in Beethoven, which isn't technically difficult, I've no idea.
Note that "French horn", to a horn player, specifically means the old style French instrument with three piston valves, now obsolete even in France. The term "rotary valve french horn" is a contradiction.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2008-01-04 13:04
Ken Shaw wrote,
>Did you really like Renee Fleming's announcements for the NY Philharmonic broadcast? I though she gushed terribly -- almost as bad as the extremely boring concert. >
Gushing seems to be the thing these days--even the news readers on CNN and MSNBC do it. It drives me nuts when they report serious news in Valley Girl substandard English while rolling their eyes and squealing as if they were reporting gossip. Compared with some of those newsie airheads, Renee Fleming's almost down-to-earth. I thought her interview with Joshua Bell was pretty good, although yes, she did gush (but, to be fair, so did he: a mutual admiration society on display there...) and some of her questions seemed so oddly uninformed that they must have concerned things she thought viewers would need to know, rather than questions she needed to ask. I skipped the end of the concert. I was sleepy and had no fervid desire to hear another "Bolero."
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-01-04 14:26
"...I skipped the end of the concert. I was sleepy and had no fervid desire to hear another "Bolero."..."
I stayed with it and watched the entire concert, knowing that Drucker would probably play principal in the second half (since Nuccio played the first half) and it might be one of the last times to see him do Bolero (with Nuccio playing Eb) as well as the nasty little solo in Tzigane ...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-04 22:57
For as staid an organization as the Vienna is I thought the 2008 concert was a strange brew. Although I love ballet I thought theirs was too drawn out and inconsequential. I also like soccer ....but not with Strauss. I also like many of Georges Pretre's recordings but I'd hate to have to follow his direction.
All in all it certainly was not Auld Lang Syne.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kenb
Date: 2008-01-05 01:45
"I also like many of Georges Pretre's recordings but I'd hate to have to follow his direction."
Pretre did a great deal by not doing much at all - he just got them going and then let them play repertoire they know better than anyone else.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-01-05 12:46
So...then....why have him there since the concert master could have started things just as well. It would be interesting to know who directed the marketing of this event since it was obvious to me that "they" were trying some different approaches.
Bob Draznik
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