 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-29 12:52
There's a trend which I have seen for a while now that bothers me. Youth Orchestras aren't now for only high school and jr high players - "adults" who are in College are participating and holding their chairs for sometimes 7 or 8 years.
That isn't at all fair to the talented High School players who often can't make the group ever due to there not being openings for years on end. Even in Philadelphia their Jr. Youth Orchestra (titled the PYAO, Philadelphia Young Artists Orchestra) there are players in it who are in their 3rd year of University.
It's not fair for talented High School players to never get an op to play in groups like that because players are hogging the spots and growing old in them. Also the Univ. players have their own Univ. Orchestras to participate in and get the experience.
I know that the groups of course sound a lot better due to the older players, but when there are only a couple of spots for a section to me there should be turnover if there are good players for the spots.
Thoughts??
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Sang1Lee
Date: 2007-12-29 13:21
in my area, there are two "advance" youth orchestras
one stays true and only uses high school student no matter what
the Other one says 'if there aren't good enough players, they fill the position with college students'
(but they only use the college student as a ringer and for only about an year)(so it's not that bad)
but, the thing with youth orchestras in the world is that they are actually made up of people up to 28 years old!
US is the only country(i think..) that has youth orchestra made up of only high school students
so, maybe they want to try to compete with other youth orchestras in the world.. iunno......
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2007-12-29 13:25
I was never in a youth orchestra. But I am almost positive that the Greater Twin Cities Youth Orchestra and the Minneapolis Youth Orchestra have an age cut off. You must be in high school or lower to participate in the groups.
Thats too bad though that there are college kids taking spots for extra years. isn't the whole point of a youth orchestra to get the best YOUTH to perform together? Besides college kids should have their own ensembles to perform in.
Sounds like some sort of intervention is needed by someone, or some group of people (like parents of students who don't make it because of college students) to fix this situation.
Neal R.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-12-29 13:41
I would think that in some cases, it makes it easier for the conductor to program advanced repertoire and to work with players with whom they are familiar. I suppose it make it easier for them. In essence, they are likely choosing not to train the less experienced.
It is a lousy policy and cheats players who really need the opportunity. Many current HS students will otherwise will not have a chance to get the experience they need and be at a disadvantage in auditioning for music schools in a very competitive market.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2007-12-29 14:07
I'm actually not sure what I think of this, it has some advantages and disadvantages. These are the two that immediately come to mind.
Advantage: Younger players can learn from older players. We certainly do this in Army Bands. A great deal of my job here in Kansas is teaching and mentoring my section members. I encourage them to take lessons, and give them my advice when I know they really need it. Most recently, I convinced one of my new colleagues (it's more likely for him to achieve his goals in the Army with a graduate degree completed on active duty, so this is to his benefit) to take advantage of the opportunity to work towards a master's degree at Kansas State University with my former clarinet teacher. I've since graduated. I set a precedent that I would like to see continue once I leave active duty in April.
Disadvantage: The younger players may lose an opportunity to perform in a orchestra. However, some of the youth orchestras that admit college students also have more than one orchestra. I know this is the case with the Philadelphia Youth Orchestra, and I don't think college age students are terribly interested in performing in a "second tier" youth orchestra. I could be mistaken.
The Board of Directors, Music Directors, and faculty make these decisions. I hope that they weigh the costs and benefits carefully, and make these decisions in the most informed and thoughtful manner.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2007-12-29 15:04
That's a good point Mark. However, I do think that you have to be tolerant to some degree of things you may not like. I'm not terribly old, only 26 (as of tomorrow), but I've already figured out that tolerance is essential as a professional. I suspect this is the case in all walks of life.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-12-29 15:14
My daughter is in one of the youth orchestras in the metro Detroit area. They play standard orchestral repertoire and do it using high school kids. Occasionally, they will bring in a "ringewr," but it is only because they do not have enough musicians to play the parts, or have absolutely nobody on a particular instrument at all.
Nobody is deprived of a chance to play, but there may be cases where certain musicians are not yet up to the level required to be in a particular group. Example: in her first year, my daughter was good enough to be in either the Concert or the Symphony Orchestra of the organization, but she was too young to be in the Symphony, which requires thsat you are at least in 10th grade. She played very well in COncert, as a first/Eefer doubler, and has since moved up to the Symphony, where she has the same role.
There are probably a number of kids who audition and simply are not good enough to make the grade for either orchestra. In that case, if they can't recruit someone of sufficient skill to play the part before the concert, they moight bring in a "ringer." But it is rare. SOme parts just do not have enough kids trying out to seat a full section, hence the ringers.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-12-29 15:37
I've been on both sides - in high school waiting DESPERATELY to get in, then when I did get in, I sat as principal for a few years and also played principal in my college orchestra at the same time. I sort of dominated the youth orchestra scene for a while but at the end of the day, I waited my turn, I played Bass, E-flat, third/second for so long to get where I did I felt like I earned it, just as others after me are doing now.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-29 16:04
There's an "age guillotine" here, like 18 or 21 years. The limit is a bit more relaxed for "guests" (eg for a crumhorn part in a concert), but generally the players are <cough> encouraged to move up when their time has come.
--
Ben
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-12-29 16:56
crnichols wrote:
> That's a good point Mark. However, I do think that you have to
> be tolerant to some degree of things you may not like. I'm not
> terribly old, only 26 (as of tomorrow), but I've already
> figured out that tolerance is essential as a professional. I
> suspect this is the case in all walks of life.
There are only 4 possibilities in situations such at this:
1) completely agree with the rules
2) disagree with the rules but accept them without complaint
3) disagree with the rules but accept them with complaint
4) disagree with the rules and do not accept them
4) can have 2 results:
4a) don't join, do nothing
4b) don't join, start your own orchestra w/ like minded people.
I personally quickly tire of people following 3), often do 1) or 2), and really respect 4b) even where I disagree with the base premise.
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2007-12-29 16:57
David Blumberg,
When i was a high school student, correct me if im wrong, but weren't a couple of your "college students" in PYO? apr. 1994-1997?
:)
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-12-29 17:45
here the upper age limit for a "youth orchestra" is around the 23 mark as far as i know... i think 28 IS going a bit far...
so the "Youth Orchestra" is more or less for players up to the end of a Bachelor degree
however- we also have "secondary school" orchestras that are purely for high school age students (who are also quite welcome to audition for the Youth Orchestra). The Youth Orchestra tend to have university age students in principal positions, but Secondary school students have the option to apply (both at local and national level).
this system works just fine
donald
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-29 18:32
Evan, they made it in 10th grade - all 3 of them if I recall. But it was the Senior one, not the Junior version of it. It's the Junior version that to me should be limited to 18 yrs old.
2 continued through College, but one of the 2 that was his only musical group as he didn't major in music and play in Penn's Orchestra. The one who stayed in and was also a Performance Major wasn't studying with me at the time, she was with Tony G.
I wouldn't tell a student to quit, but the Orchestra to me should have a lower age cutoff for it's Jr version or it's not a Jr. at all.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2007-12-29 20:13
I personally think that if a student is made to audition against others students who are older and probably better, they will also be made to perform at a level that they normally would not. If the student has to compete against people that are better than them I think they will grow learn more.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-12-29 23:42
Bc11dso, I guess you might say it's like playing tennis. You never get better of you only play against people at your own comfort level.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Emily's Dad
Date: 2007-12-30 05:15
The St. Louis Symphony Youth Orchestra has a cut-off age of 22, so although they accept ages 12-22, a 12 year old would have to be VERY good! Happy Birthday Chris!
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2007-12-30 13:12
My feeling is that unless there is a shortage of players the cut-off for a youth orchestra should be high school graduation. Once a player is at the college/university level they should play in a university orchestra or go out and secure a spot in a play for free grown up orchestra. How can the youth get trained if all the spots are held by university students?
In our area we can't seem to attract enough wind players for the student orchestra. The high school players are busy with marching band, concert band, dance band, jazz band, pep band and could care less about Beethoven, Borodin and Glinka. Also, I find that the wind section in a student orchestra sits a lot during rehearsal while the conductor works with the strings. I'm old and worn out so don't mind the rest during a two hour rehearsal but the kids get bored and restless.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2007-12-30 13:30
The youth orchestra organisation I was involved in, The Queensland Youth Orchestras, has 3 full size symphony orchestras, 2 wind orchestras and a junior string group. They now also form a chamber orchestra and jazz band for special tours. Each orchestra has a different age cut off, 23 being the cut off for the flagship orchestra. I had to progress my way from the baby wind ensemble, to the 3rd orchestra, to the 2nd orchestra, eventually do principal in the flagship group when I was 21 and 22. As for people saying that university students have their own groups to play in, that is certainly not true. I know where I studied, the reason I wanted to do the youth orchestra (which is coincidentally one of the best in the country) was because I was barely getting any experience from the college orchestra. There were far too many students and not enough people being given a go. People had to wait in line to take my place, and like Morrigan I felt I deserved to hold onto my spot after the years of trying to get there and the devotion I showed to the entire organisation.
I think a "youth" orhcestra in no way specifies it much be high school age students. I believe early 20's is still youth - and there are occasionally players in their late teens/early 20's who are not studying music but still keep up their practicing and play in good youth orchestras. Who's to tell them they're too old to do it.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-12-31 11:31
David wrote- "Also the Univ. players have their own Univ. Orchestras to participate in and get the experience."
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Are there??? I can imagine that the College students that do these ensembles feel the opposite. If they were so satisfied by there College program then they would not be going out of thier way to participate in these ensembles.
I hope no one takes this personally, but I have experience in which the college orchestra was made up of mostly education majors and non-majors that didn't practice nearly as much as the hand full of performance majors in the group. The rehearsals focused on the most basic qualities of music and seldom got into the real "meat" of the piece. The performance majors were invariably frusterated with the situation- I wouldn't not blame them for looking for other oppertunities.
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