 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2007-12-26 21:28
On another thread a young member asked for advice about recordings of clarinetists with great sounds. As an amateur who has recently returned to the clarinet after a twenty-year hiatus, I have been doing a lot of experimentation with a new mouthpiece, reeds, ligatures, etc., and would appreciate if those of you with more knowledge and experience than myself try to answer the following question: Can you change your sound significantly without changing equipment (e.g. mouthpiece, type of clarinet, etc.)? You can try to improve the sound you have (i.e. better embouchure, breath support, etc.). You can embellish with vibrato (if it's to your taste). But if you want to sound like Leister, don't you need a German clarinet (and/or mouthpiece, reed)? If you want to sound like Brymer, don't you need a British clarinet (Boosey & Hawkes, mouthpiece, etc.)? And if you want to sound like Schifrin, don't you need a French clarinet (Buffet, LeBlanc, Selmer, etc.) and perhaps a certain mouthpiece (last I heard he was playing Backun-Morales)? How much can you really change without changing equipment. Please correct if I'm wrong,Great Sages of the Liquorish Stick.
Cass Tech (aka leatherlip)
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2007-12-26 22:16
Cass Tech
I am not sure I am more experienced than you, but that won't stop me from giving my opinion
I think the answer is a little bit of both. A very experienced player can probably sound like anything he or she wants with the equipment they play. Some players have a very wide range of timbres and with a little effort can sound "german", "french", "british" (btw most brits play buffet these days), or even like a flute. However, there is no doubt that their equipment is optimized for what they decide to sound like. So yes, Robert Marcellus certainly could sound german, but he may have had an easier time doing so on a german clarinet.
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Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: FDF
Date: 2007-12-26 22:25
Cass Tech, I am not one of the great sages of the clarinet. I did teach acting and know that each individual has a distinctive voice. With actor's, although they can't buy new instruments, they can exercise and improve their own instruments through exercise. A voice can be more relaxed and resonant, the articulators can clarify diction, the vocal folds can vibrate more freely, etc., yet each person will have a distinctive sound. You will be able to recognize their voice. I believe much of the same holds true for the voice of the clarinetist. So, I think you will be able to improve, through practice, articulation, resonance, and the overall quality of your individual sound. To enhance that sound, you must add your mind, your heart, and your soul to express the music to the best of your ability.
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Author: Taryn
Date: 2007-12-27 16:24
I'm no expert either, but there we found a huge change in my sound while experimenting with emboucher, before I got around to barrel/mouthpiece/ligature. Mostly while switching from single lip to double lip. They weren't huge changes, and the differences weren't that noticable to me until I did play around with the equipment and realized just how many variations my sound can have.
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2007-12-27 17:09
Thanks for you thoughts, Sylvain, FDF and Taryn. But I'm still somewhat skeptical about the degree of change (not of improving the sound you have) possible by even the most skilled player without changing equipment. Some degree, certainly. And I'm not talking about contemporary techniques, only standard clarinet tone. Frost's Nielsen displays the greatest range of sound that I've heard. (By the way, Sylvain, I love your name. I imagine you as a nymph dancing through the forest, playing the clarinet and attracting the attention of the Siegfried clarinet birds singing in the trees. And you have the chocolate tone of Marcellus on the Cleveland Orchestra recording with Szell of Wagner Ring excerpts.)
Cass Tech (aka leatherlip)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-27 18:21
There are so many things that can changes ones' tonal qualities.
Start with your throat and oral cavity. You can vary greatly by this. If you don't know what I mean try playing, say a low C or G then try duplicating yawning. Your tone will change.
Of course, your embouchure has to be used correctly on the mouthpiece. many players do not take in enough mouthpiece. If you take in too little then, IMHO, your tonal quality may vary little between mouthpieces.
Assuming the above are correct then mouthpiece will vary your tonal characteristics, and such as clarinets, and barrels, etc
It is best to get with a good teacher on how to play a clarinet before you even get to fingerings if you ask me.
Cass Tech - are you in the Detroit MI area ?
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2007-12-27 19:36
Stevesklar:
I used to live in Detroit, but now live in Chicago. Years ago I began my studies with Herbert Couf (formerly of the Detroit Symphony), then continued with Vicent Meladon (also of the Detroit Symphony). In college I spent a year studying with Lawrence MacDonald (formerly of the Toledo Symphony). At present I'm just working by myself, but at some point (I plan on doing a recital eventually, my second in forty years) I'll take a lesson or two just to have the advantage of another pair of ears with professional experience. Thanks for your valuable input, Steve.
Cass Tech (leatherlip)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-12-27 22:25
Cass Tech,
Interesting thoughts above. A person that I really listened to advice-wise was Portnoy. He was quite a guy with the one-liners (actually two or three-liners). One thing I remember was that he said something like even when you change a mouthpiece, you may have a different sound at first but you will eventually go back to the sound that you hear yourself having.
No matter what MP I play, I pretty much sound the same. This makes me think that the ears and embouchure as well as how we adjust the oral cavity while supporting the tone have the most influence on the sound.
You've had some pretty fine teachers as have I but you know, I can't really remember how they sounded. I'm sure that they influenced my tone a great deal though. However, I really get knocked out when I hear some really great clarinet tone and I'm sure I file that sound bite away somewhere in my long-term memory.
HRL
PS Was it John R Street in downtown Detroit where all the old music stores used to be located?
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2007-12-28 00:09
CassTech,
I tend to disagree with you with respect to sound, at leat in some players. While I find somebody like Ricardo Morales to have a very unique but rigid (as in, not very varied across different musical styles), others such as Robert Crowley or Thomas Martin have shown me that they can sound like a true dixieland jazz player a french clarinetist and a german player with the same equipment. There is so much one can do that I find in the end it is a matter of what they decide they want you to hear. I studied with Bob Crowley for a while and on the one hand he would try so many different mouthpieces with basically the same tonal quality in the end and on the other with the same equipment play debussy, brams and copland with each greatly different tone concepts.
Of course, I agree with you that drastic differences are not necessarily heard, but I am still ready to argue that equipment has little to do with it.
By the way, Sylvain is a french male name which has something to do with forest so the clarinet nymph is unfortunately a little off the mark
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-28 01:24
Cass (off subject)
yes Mr Herb Couf - I recd lessons at his music store in Royal Oak. I was primarily a sax player back then (also played clarinet and of course still do). But went to Wayne State Music School (while still in high school - placed there by my HS band Dir and i believe helped by mr couf), then off to UM with what's his face (i can't believe i can't remember his name ) ... long time ago.
Mr Couf handpicked my first clarinet back in 78 which I still have - a Normandy 4.
Cheers,
Steve
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-28 02:26
Mark - but Mr. Couf sold Royal Music 1989 and it's changed hands a couple times since. The lady that ran the music sheet dept is now at A&G ? in Madison Heights on 11 mile E of John R.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-12-28 03:14
stevesklar wrote:
> Mark - but Mr. Couf sold Royal Music 1989 and it's changed
> hands a couple times since.
Yes. But what he started continues ... As does the enterprise a few miles away, Luck's Music Library, started by Arthur Luck and grown to be the world's largest distributor of orchestral music (and damn fine librarians - if you need it, they can find it).
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2007-12-28 14:46
Hank:
Thanks for the imput. Sorry, I don't remember whether John R had the music stores.
Sylvain:
Oops! My overly vivid imagination got ahead of me. You've obviously had teachers with a far greater range of sound than I've had.
Steve:
Did you play under Dr. Harold Arnoldi at Wayne? He was our band director at Cass - a great conductor, teacher, father-figure. I loved that guy. I also attended U of M in the late 60's, early 70s. I began to play with the band but was side-tracked by the Movement Against the War in Vietnam, as an activist. Couf picked both my 60s R-13s. A while back my dad attended a performance of the Brahms Quintet with the Juilliard and Neidich at which he spotted Herb Couf.
Cass Tech (aka leatherlip)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-12-28 19:04
Check the articles by Portnoy and , more technical and pertaining to the instrument itself, Benade's book and articles, and those of James Jeans.. Formants of all instruments are different. As a general remark, the higher the cutoff frequency, the more brilliant the timbre. The shape of the bore is most important, and is not the same for all brands. Very little refinement in bore shape is done in the mass-produced instruments. Hans Moenig was the master technician in his day. Ridenour, Fobes, and others are knowledgeable. As for the player, there are enormous differences. Listen to Girko with the Dallas Symphony for a spectacular range of timbre, as befits the music he is playing.
richard smith
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-12-29 02:58
Mark - yes it does continue. But going in and not seeing Mr Couf (when he was there) or his store manager .. it's just different. few instruments now, mostly guitars and keyboards last time i was there.
Thanks for the info about Lucks. I actually didn't know it was around this area. I've only been to JW Peppers here in Troy, and Annie's music
Cass - Dr. H Arnoldi - it rings a bell, but it was so long ago truthfully I have no idea. If he was there in 82-84 timeframe then it must have been him. Did he also conduct the state honors bands which were normally run out of WSU.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-12-29 04:59
I think it is very possible to for people to change their sound and have different sounds altogether with the same setup. But the biggest dificulty, IMO, is changing the structure of your mouth, oral cavity, and concept of what you want to sound like enough to produce that sound.
I play with a certain sound that I really like. I like the way I sound (maybe not everyone else does, but I certainly do) and I play that way as much as possible. So when I put a clarinet in my mouth, my lip position, tongue position, oral cavity, pressure on the reed, etc. all conforms to what's necessary for "my" sound. Lately I've been working on the Artie Shaw Concerto. But for that, I don't think my sound is appropriate. So I've been trying to 'reteach' and 'rethink' what my sound should be. And it's dificult to produce the sound that I want on that particular piece right away because it's going against what I've taught myself over the past years. But I believe that once I get that one down and play that way enough, I'll be able to effectively switch between them whenever I want. Much like a woodwind doubler can switch embouchors for VASTLY different instruments on the fly.
If you want to change your sound to something altogether different, I believe that you have to figure out what sound it is you're going for, do whatever you need to to get there, and try VERY hard to remember what you did. And practice that so that it becomes second nature.
As per the changes in equipment, I think that the equipment helps you to get a sound easier. Like mentioned above, if a professional clarinetist of the 'french' school wanted to sound like the typical 'german' school, they could do it. I'm sure he/she is knowledgable enough to be able to do it. But it certainly MIGHT be easier with different equipment than they typically use.
Perhaps this is a big factor in why orchestras will switch to german clarinets for german style concert pieces? And why people use "period" instruments for a period recording (to ENSURE a 'period' sound easily)?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-12-29 12:02
Hi,
Ask a guy like John Moses who plays all sorts of things that call for different sounds and interpretations. My street sense is that he does not change the setup as much as he changes the things we have spoken about above.
On tenor and also sax, I use two different MPs. One a jazz/show MP and the other a more classic piece for wind or chamber ensemble. But I also adjust the style as far as embouchure, vibrato, air stream speed, etc as required. On clarinet, I use the same setup always but can get many different sounds.
As I have said before, it's all about your ears.
HRL
PS I had an acquaintance ask me recently to give her some clarinet lessons so she could get a darker sound. I declined. The reason? Her sound is not very good to begin with so what she needs first is to develop a solid legitimate tone (lots of listening, long tones, Rose #1 for weeks on end, slow practice). But she's an MD and a surgeon so...
Post Edited (2007-12-29 12:07)
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Author: Cass Tech
Date: 2007-12-31 14:18
Steve:
Dr. Arnoldi was probably there before you were, you would've remembered him.
Happy new year to all of ye of the clarinet clan!
Cass Tech (aka leatherlip)
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