 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cskharr
Date: 2007-12-15 16:12
First, what a great board here! I have learned a ton from just reading and listening to the experts here.
In my younger years I enjoyed playing the clarinet and my intrest has renewed with my daughter now playing.
The question, I recently found a clarinet at a antiques and vintage auction, A very well kept Buffet, serial 38** which, depending on which site I believe, makes it a 1929 or a 1930. The wood is pristine, and I was told had always been oiled with almond oil. The keys are gold as well as the posts, bell cap and tenor ring. The Buffet case (Tan with leather ends and corners) has a cotton like material stitched inside that reads, "Benny, we will always have the music, B. Carter"
The lady "claimed" it was a gift upon retiring from a Benny Carter to Benny Goodman.
Other than the "possible" history value... Has there ever been a gold Keyed, Buffet? Is there a value here that I should keep her from using it at school, possibly keep it for later if she continues to play?
And finally, were the 1929/1930 Buffets a good clarinet, worth keeping till later or is it ok to let her use this at school?
If not, the clarinet plays wonderful, with a rich tone and an ease through the octives still and my daughter has a very "unique" clarinet. Thanks for any insight!
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-12-15 17:20
pictures?
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-12-15 19:26
Hi cskharr- Congrats, I believe you have a famous clarinet, the gold plating alerts many of us, AND, since Benny Carter "rang my bell", I made an AOL-Google search and found much info re: this 100 year old musician !! I suggest you do the same and read. I'm a fan of Riverwalk Jazz, [San Antonio, Ron Hockett is Great !!] and they had a B C "show" available there, info etc. I'd offhand suggest limiting the school band use of a prob. VG older Buffet, Other [better] Buff experts, please comment. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: cskharr
Date: 2007-12-15 20:27
I don't have a digital available right now,and the closest is a camera phone which does not do very well. I'll get some pictures taken and upload them shortly.
Were there gold keyed Buffets made or were they plated later? I have never heard of one until I saw this one?
Don, you mentioned a problem with VG Buffets, can you elaborate on that for me? Thanks again!
Post Edited (2007-12-15 20:30)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-12-15 21:27
CSK - I'm guilty of using the abbreviation, prob. , meaning probably, not probLEM, sorry ! I have a good cl friend [local] who dearly loves Buffs of this time period, worked on a couple of them, enjoyed their good [test] playing. I have heard of some [early model] intonation problems, OTHERS PLEASE HELP, which were "cured" by Carree's modifications to the bore of the upper joint, of which I know very little. While I prefer Selmers, for my playing, Buffet cls are excellent [IMHO] for classical et al playing. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-12-16 03:35
In my view, you should absolutely, positively, NOT let your daughter use that thing for a "school horn" until you know exactly what you've got. You could be talking "Antiques Roadshow" here. One thing I'd check, were I you, is the Heritage Auction Galleries, who advertise in musicians'-union newspapers & specialize in music and entertainment memorabilia. I know nothing about them, one way or the other, I'm just suggesting them as a possible source of information. The weblink is www.ha.com, and I just checked the site myself. A couple of "Benny Goodman's Clarinets," a couple of "Harry James' Trumpets", one trumpet supposedly owned by Bunny Berigan, a bunch of guitars owned by stars, etc. Looks legit to ME, but YMMV, as we say around here.
Another source of information might be Wichita Band Instrument Co., who have always struck me as ethical, discriminating and aboveboard (going by the look and content of their website, anyway). Check their website & read over their clarinet listings (esp. the Buffets) and see what you think.
I have no idea what to tell you about the "gold" plating. I've seen some cheesy beginners' instruments with "gold-tone" keys, but a jeweler would be more helpful than I on that score.
Unfortunately, an instrument like that, if it's authentic, might be more of a responsibility than you'd welcome right now, and you'd still have to do something about getting your daughter a clarinet to play! Good luck, though--sounds kind of like an unfolding adventure to me.
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Author: cskharr
Date: 2007-12-16 04:50
I have seen one of the cheap "jupiter" and such with the electroplated "gold". The Buffet looks well plated and not worn with the exception of the left thumb keyhole. It may be nickle or silver since it is embedded in the wood and may have never been plated. (one thought on that while I am on the subject, the metal piece goes all the way through and can be seen from the inside, It looks to have a "curve" that should match the inside diameter of the horn, however it is slightly offset, meaning the curve of the metal does not align with the curve of the barrel. One shop said this was done in production to "tune" the instrument. I wonder if it has simply moved over the course of the years, anyone know? (I hope I decribed that ok...)
If it does have a history as described, It may be well worth finding the right home to have it displayed along with other fine musical pieces of history.
I have alway been the doubting Thomas of sorts, never hoping to find a true diamond in the ruff. but it may have well happened by accident.
Does anyone know of any other Gold Keyed Buffets?
And lets say just so I know if I made a good purchase, what would a very good condition, 1929/30 Buffet be worth? with standards keys? I might have just been caught up in the moment and spent too much! Everyones insight is greatly appreciated!!!!
Oh! and she does have good clarinets right now, I just was looking for a nice "inspirational" clarinet in the Buffet. She uses an old anderson for outside"marching" and my old `65 Selmer#9 in concert and competition settings.
Post Edited (2007-12-16 04:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-16 07:35
"It looks to have a "curve" that should match the inside diameter of the horn, however it is slightly offset, meaning the curve of the metal does not align with the curve of the barrel. One shop said this was done in production to "tune" the instrument. I wonder if it has simply moved over the course of the years, anyone know?"
The thumb bush may have been replaced at some point in time with an unplated or nickel plated one (they're made from nickel silver anyway), perhaps the tuning on the throat F# wasn't great with the original and the replacement one wasn't installed correctly so the cut-out doesn't line up with the curvature of the bore. Even so, this won't affect the way it plays, the tuning or voicing, and it's nothing to worry about.
When you do have it overhauled, the chances are it'll be removed along with the speaker tube and installed with the cut-out lining up with the bore - or while it's out it can be gold plated to match the keywork.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-12-16 12:48)
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-16 10:34
Although I can’t say that I know for sure, I feel quite certain that this is a special order (GP).
Is the bell ring gold plated? It usually gets left unplated post-production because it is press fit and difficult to remove.
I don’t know a lot about pre-carree Buffets except that there are a minority of people out there that like them. The polycylindrical bore was basically designed keep the 12ths in tune with the combination of a small bore. I think normally this clarinet would be worth quite a bit less than an post Carree R13 (50-60%). In general most people prefer ‘modern’ clarinets but I know there are a few vintage nuts out there that are looking for very particular model but I don’t know the models they prefer. Buyers also tend to be cautious with older clarinets because of the possibility of bore integrity issues. The actual bore dimensions could be compromised from it’s original design from drying and oiling over the years.
I agree that you should hold off on selling it until you can ascertain it’s true historical value. I also think that the Selmer Series 9 (*?) is a wonderful instrument for your daughter for right now. I would think that it plays as good or better than the Buffet.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-12-16 12:17
I don't know anything about the special provenance of this particular instrument, but I agree with the people who recommend taking special care of it , simply on grounds that even if it's got nothing to do with Benny Goodman, it could be a very fine clarinet. Buffets of that era are beauties. I own a 1931 Buffet in A and a 1937 Buffet in Bb. They're my two best clarinets. I also own a 1977 Buffet R-13 in A, but I think the old 1931 model is the better player.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Firebird
Date: 2007-12-16 13:24
I own a Bb/A pair of 1928 Buffet clarinets. They are excellent players for lazy days `cause it doesn't take much effort to get good sound out of them.
However, be careful of the tuning problems that the older Buffets might give.
Chan
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-12-16 13:50
I'm intrigued by the history related to the instrument: who's this "lady," how did she come to be privy to the story? Whose estate was it part of? How did HE get the instrument? Benny Carter died recently, Benny Goodman in 1984; did either of them ever actually HAVE the clarinet, and if so, which of them, and when? The "retirement" angle sounds a little goofy, only because it's a pristine older instrument, and both these musicians were in their youth when it was originally sold.
I don't know how you would check any of this, which is why I mentioned the auction gallery upthread; I imagine they're good at establishing provenance because verifiable provenance can add to an instrument's value at auction. I also used the term "responsibility" in my previous post because if I were fortunate enough to have something like this come my way, I'd feel an imperative to establish its authenticity, not just to satisfy my own curiosity, but to make sure there's some documentation (rather than mere "he-said-she-said") to pass on to the next person who gets the horn. (You and I come and go, but instruments of some significance tend to endure over generations.)
These might be helpful along those lines: the auction site I mentioned; Deborah Reeves at the Shrine to Music Museum in, what is it, South Dakota?, where they have a huge clarinet collection; Loren Schoenberg, a jazz historian, bandleader, and first-rate tenor saxophonist, who also worked for Goodman as an archivist and personal/musical assistant (and who is also involved with a number of jazz collections as an advisor, curator, or historian); the curator of the instrument collection at the Metropolitan Museum of Art (this is for establishing what you've got, not what it's worth); ... well, here's the thing: one could, just by using the telephone and/or computer, learn a lot about jazz, meet some interesting people, get a bunch of further leads to explore (everyone you talk to could probably suggest a host of sources to check out), and generally have a good time looking into something like this.
The Benny Carter angle: did Benny Carter have his OWN 'Loren Schoenberg,' someone who has curated his considerable output of arrangements, correspondence, his 'history-etcetera,' who might be able to shed some light here? Actually, too, the inscription is to "Benny," not Benny Goodman specifically. What other "Benny" could it have been? Ben Webster, Benny Golson, Bennie Moten?
You see how it goes. One question leads to another, if you're up for it.
Good luck!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-12-16 15:07
I heartily agree with all of the [cautious] comments above. Yes, please pursue establishing it's history. Yes, Debbi Reeves, of Natl. Music Museum [formerly "Shrine"] at U of S D, Vermillion, SD, [www.dreeves@usd.edu] I'm sure would help. I have given a number of cls etc to them, and she "dug-out" history on my somewhat rare birds, well beyond what I knew. Also, Al Rice at Fiske Museum, Claremont Colleges, CA is an expert [and author] re: woodwinds [www.arrice@rocket...], who I'm also sure would help. My golden oldie, a Selmer [A !] showing a "winged" logo with HS on all pieces [1929 also], "reputed" to having been tuned by Henri himself, pales in comparison to your BC/BG provenance. Please keep us informed, LUCK, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-12-16 15:47
Not exactly germane to the discussion at hand, but Buffet did offer instruments with gold-plated keys in the mid-late 1970s. I remember getting a catalog around that time (I no longer have it, unfortunately), where the various permutations of the R13 family were listed. Different models were available with extra keywork, and one or two models were plated with gold, if I am not mistaken.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-12-16 16:50
The keywork was probably gold plated (had it gold plated) by an owner, not by the factory and probably represented a special gift presentation. Personally, I would suspect that it was Ben Webster who presented it to Benny Carter or vice versa. I certainly would not let it out of my own hands until I had more facts. My personal feeling is that gold plating would have had more relevance to both of the above "Bens" than to Benny Goodman. Carter did arrangements for B.G. but that was probably the extent of their collaboration. These are all my personal opinions.
Bob Draznik
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Author: cskharr
Date: 2007-12-16 21:55
Thanks for all of the wonderful insight, I must admit, after listening to the posibilities of this piece I didn't sleep well last night! I do however, still have some doubts. The Buffet is indeed a special clarinet, with the gold keys, but I still have my doubts. The case is not a buffet case, and I don't see any markings on it at all. One would think it would be in the correct case if it was indeed a gift.
Doug, I agree on the mention of the date of the clarinet and the dates that these people played, dosen't seem right either as proposed in an earlier post. But I guess one could say the clarinet was purchased at a much later date and then plated and given as a gift with the clarinet being a reference (date) to a better time? But then the fact of the bell plating being almost impossible to be done on the clarinet.... sigh...
I guess one could speculate that it wasn't a "retirement gift" rather a gift for something great that happened that both were involved in? I feel the other post may be correct also, it dosen't nessesarily mean Goodman, heck it could be Benny Jasparsowickinmyer for all I know.
I suspect if it is what is was said to be, there is a big gap in the line of proof and it may never be found. Again, it wasn't my original thought to purchase a piece of history, just to get a good clarinet for my daughter. But at the same time, I Definately wouldn't want to hold onto it and have a part of history be missed by those who love it too.
I don't know. with no proof and a case that dosen't match the clarinet (of course the case holds the only reference to what it might be....) I may just have a buffet some eccentric in 1929 had gold plated....
I don't have any background on the estate or person it came from, I will try to get some info tomorrow.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-12-17 03:10
well, not to beat a dead horse, but this is exactly the kind of thing that the PBS show "History Detectives" eats up--or would, if the clarinet had an association with Babe Ruth! (Ben Webster, maybe not so much.) They investigate artifacts that have an alleged history and are potentially (if the history checks out) important items. They actively solicit just this kind of thing on their website, so you might check that out too. It may be too "inside baseball" for them ultimately, but then, maybe not--and you never know until you ask.
Here's the website:
http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/
Again, good luck!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-12-17 21:20
It could certainly be a presentation instrument, or possibly one made for a band leader to impress the audience.
On the other hand, some people have high acid levels in their sweat, which eats through German silver and nickel and silver plating quickly. Al Gallodoro, for example, couldn't keep an ordinary instrument for more than a year or two and eventually had the metal on all his instruments (clarinet, alto sax and bass clarinet) heavily gold plated.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-17 21:33
The Pete Fountain Leblancs had gold plated keys (wasn't there also a Pete Fountain Vito with gold plated keys?), and I think there may have been an Armstrong (UMI-era) that had gold plated keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2007-12-19 01:11
Do you have any closer pictures of the keys? They kinda don't look gold to me, just tarnished. Nickel silver turns a goldish orangy color when it tarnishes. But it's hard to tell from your picture.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2007-12-19 14:31
I'm with Sue, looks like an ordinary old Buffet with tarnished nickel silver keys. My guess would be that your 1960s Selmer #9 is a better playing instrument.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: cskharr
Date: 2007-12-19 15:05
Attachment: buffetB.jpg (166k)
Attachment: buffetc.jpg (159k)
It isn't tarnished silver or nickle, I've delt with that before. I have been hesitant to do any polishing, I was worried it might have a laquer coating on it. I rubbed a few spots and took some pics out in the sun, it is going in to be repadded and corked today though. I'll let you know what they think of the finish!
Post Edited (2007-12-19 15:31)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-12-19 17:08
Get the tenon corks replaced, too. The photos show the awful stuff made out of glued-together cork crumbs.
I agree that it looks more like tarnish than gold.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-19 17:30
To me it looks like someone has used something abrasive to polish the keys with - anything from a Brillo pad (wire wool) to scouring powder or even Scotchbrite.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cskharr
Date: 2007-12-19 19:34
Last one, and thanks again for all the help and advice, I really appreciated it. The keys are gold plated, with a laquer coating, however the coating is yellowing. I guess my pictures didn't do justice. Sorry bout that. I think I am spending more on cleaning and restoring it than I did on purchasing it.
First stop was at a well known jeweler here in Florida. He did a chemical test on the underside of one of the tone hole covers where a pad was removed. Between 14~20 carat gold plated, not electric chemical plating.
He believes all the parts were dipped an each has a small area on it somewhere to suspend or hold the part. The underlying metal is nickel.
The repair shop was the next stop, it is going to be diasembled, the body "pressure soaked" to oil the wood. All the keys are going to to have the laquer removed and be polished and yes, all new corks as well as pads, springs if needed (they are gold plated as well, except one that was already replaced from the looks of it. No apparent cracks, he did say after oiling small cracks, if any would show up better
He found "29" stamped under the keys, both top and bottom (he said means 1929 for sure?!?)
Thanks again, and you may be right, the selmer will probably still be the better of the two, but the buffet will still make a nice gift to her to hold onto, maybe someday it will help buy her a car or small piece of the tuition.
God Bless and have a Merry Christmas!!!
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Author: cskharr
Date: 2008-01-18 03:05
Attachment: buffetgolddone.jpg (175k)
Hello All,
Once again thanks for all the input and help with the buffet. I just it got back yesterday. They steamed off the laquer paint on the keys, then adjusted two of the keys. He wouldn't machine polish the keys, he was afraid of damaging the plating. The (scrotch bright scratches) came off with the laquer.
Anyways, complete rebuild as needed with oil soak, all new pads (Wiess pads, did I spell that right?)& Cork, adjusted as needed.
He said it was in very good shape, only two keys and posts needed swedging, which he used teflon inserts.
Attached is a photo, Looks much better and plays beautifully, just like a buffet should.
( I still like my selmer #9 though, heh heh)
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