 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: afmgnr24
Date: 2007-12-16 14:26
hi, is there anyone who can help me pls??
I play the Bb clarinet and i need to know if there is a type of barrel to transpose my Bb clarinet into an A clarinet
thanks.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-12-16 14:48
no. all the dimensions are different for proper tuning, you can not simply put a longer barrel on to achieve this.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-12-16 14:49
No, because it would take lots more than just lengthening the barrel. The proportions of the rest of the instrument would be off. You might be able to get a long barrel to make the throat tones "flat" enough to play a half tone flat, but then the scale of the rest of the clarinet would be way out. Pull way out and try it with a tuner, you will see. The entire instrument needs to be stretched proportionally to make it work.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2007-12-16 16:29
Well there might be hope. Years ago when I was playing my teacher told me that Jack Macaw, who was principle of the Philharmonia Orchestra London, use d to use a piece of string inside draped down the length of the bore to bring the overall pitch down and in effect creating an A clarinet. This was when he was young and didn't have an A. I've never done it so I don't know if it works or not. Failing that can you not borrow one or transpose.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2007-12-16 18:45
Wouldn't that bring the pitch up, reducing the overall area in the bore?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-16 19:15
Narrowing the bore on clarinets (by using a flute cleaning stick) lowers the pitch, but narrowing the bore on recorders raises the pitch.
Not sure of the physics behind it, but that's what happens.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-12-16 19:27
Well, somewhere in the far corners of my feeble mind it seems that I learned that pitch is a function of the ratio of length to diameter, with changes in pitch bearing some inverse relationship to that ratio.
If my remembery serves me, putting a string in the bore reduces the effective bore diameter while the length remains unchanged. Thus, the length to diameter ratio is increased and the pitch is decreased because of the inverse relationship.
A related & similar thing happens when we pull the barrel and center joints - the length increases and the bore remains the same, which also increases the ratio and decreases the pitch.
As Ed noted above, the pulling of the joints increases the overall length, but the spacing of the tone holes remains unchanged on the upper and lower joints - that changes their proportional relationship to the overall length and wreaks havoc with the tuning of the instrument. Decreasing the bore area while not changing the length does not change the tone hole spacing proportions. It does, however, change the ratio of the tone hole size to the bore diameter and volume . . . what effect would that have on tuning and/or intonation?
I have wondered what formula one would use to determine the diameter of the cord (relative to bore diameter) that one would need to lower the instrument one semi-tone? Also, what, if any, difference would it make if the "cord" were of a soft, sound absorbing, fabric (i.e., string or sash cord) or something harder (such as a dowel or an untapered piece of fiberglass fishing rod) with reflective qualities similar to the wood clarinet bore?
Eu
(changed the word "ration" to "ratio" in a couple places and made a few clarifying and grammatical patches)
Post Edited (2007-12-16 19:34)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-16 19:32
"What, if any, difference would it make if the "cord" were of a soft, sound absorbing, fabric (i.e., string or sash cord) or something harder (such as a dowel or an untapered piece of fiberglass fishing rod) with reflective qualities similar to the wood clarinet bore?"
String will absorb more water than a polished dowel! But if the string absorbs a lot of water and becomes completerly waterlogged, will it effectively act as a solid dowel would due to it's density (the air spaces in the fabric now replaced with water)?
(BTW EuGene, how's your piccolo?)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-12-16 19:32)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2007-12-16 19:35
Interesting. I just recalled that story as I was told it while i was still at school and pondering when to get an A or infact as i did, a pair. I think i asked the same question like can you change the pitch of a Bb to make it an A.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-12-16 19:39
Chris:
Yeah, I didn't think about the water bit . . . that would change the tuning a bit as the string became soaked?
My friend, you outdid yourself on the piccolo . . . our floot-tooters practically fight over who gets to squeak it next. I might have to take it away from them and learn to play it myself!
Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-16 19:55
HAHAHA! I wasn't expecting to cause a riot!
In Anthony Baines' book he mentioned hanging a length of cord down the bore of a sharp pitch clarinet to lower the pitch uniformly (and also how it makes it more resistant).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-12-16 20:00
But, is there some formula to determine the optimum cord diameter to use, thereby not having to play the iterative game of trying stepwise increases in diameter to find the size that is best? Eu
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-16 20:12
> ... to lower the pitch uniformly (and also how it makes it more resistant)
> But, is there some formula to determine the optimum cord diameter to use?
When the diameter of the cord is nearly equal to the inner diameter of the bore, the resistance reaches infinity. ;-)
--
Ben
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-12-16 21:06
Afmgnr24:
Although we have strayed somewhat and had a few funzies here, I think the first 2 posts, from pewd and Ed, pretty much answered your original question.
The clarinet is a functioning (albeit generally somewhat less than perfect) system, and almost any change in it will often have unintended effects on how well it plays. So, you will probably need to save up for an A clarinet rather than attempt to alter a Bb into an A horn.
Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-16 21:24
And it doesn't matter if you can't get an A to match your Bb, provided you get on with it.
I used to have an odd set of clarinets when I was 14 - a B&H 2-20 Bb and an old Selmer A (flat springs on C#/G# and RH F#/C# keys).
But that was until a pair of Centered Tones came my way a bit later on.
A local player has a B&H 926 Bb and a Couesnon A as his set.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-16 21:28
Hmmm... if you can slow down the vibrations of the reed, perhaps that'll drop the pitch.
Has anyone experimented with wax blobs on the reed tip to add weight, similar to how lead solder is used to tune harmonium/accordion reeds (and Wurlitzer electric piano tines) as well as cane Highland bagpipe drone reeds (though most players now use synthetic drone reeds).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-12-16 21:55)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-12-16 21:38
Chris P wrote:
> Hmmm... if you can slow down the vibrations of the reed,
> perhaps that'll drop the pitch.
The reed adds energy to a tuned, resonant system. Adding weight to the reed won't change the resonant system (pitch) very much, but it's an easy experiment to try!
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2007-12-17 15:05
-- "In Anthony Baines' book he mentioned hanging a length of cord down the bore of a sharp pitch clarinet to lower the pitch uniformly (and also how it makes it more resistant)." --
I have the feeling that there's a nice little "Bb to A clarinet conversion kit"
invention here just waiting to be discovered, patented and marketed.
Sadly, not in time for Christmes!
Steve
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-12-18 04:51
I read an article from the '70s that talked aboout a product from the 20s-30s that was just a stick that was suspended in the bore with a clip that attached into the space between the barrel and mouthpiece. It was designed to bring the pitch down a half tone. Although it was rather successful in making an A clarinet from a Bb it also increased the resistance of the clarinet a lot and (even more important that the feel) it made the dynamics very very soft. So you had an A clarinet that no one could hear.
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I have done this in my more desperate moments to get down to pitch when I was using some old badly regulated clarinets and I had a 63mm barrel and could not afford a longer one. It works and it was easy. The downside is that you can't swab the clarinet without taking the whole thing out. It also can increase squeaks and (as mentioned) reduces volume a lot and if it goes near a hole it can block the air from leaving and destroy the quality of that note. All in all, it is a fun experement to try in the privacy of your own home where no one will give you dirty looks.
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