 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2007-12-06 07:19
I'd be grateful if more experienced players could offer me some advice on playing pianissimo. I'm having difficulty playing long orchestral passages ppp. Yes, I am doing the appropriate exercises and paying attention to embouchure, but should I also change to easier reeds or think about a different mouthpiece? At the moment, I am using V12s on a Vandoren M30.
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Author: D
Date: 2007-12-06 07:34
I am certainly not a more experienced player, but as no one else seems to be awake this morning......
I find some notes are far easier to play quiet than others. PPP on long B and C, especially if tongued, is almost impossible for me. Going further down the instrument though can be really lovely. Composers never keep this in mind, so don't feel a failure if you are having a battle at the moment. We have to work harder to cover the composers lack of consideration!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-12-06 07:55
it should not be hard to play soft. if it is, then your clarinet/mouthpiece/etc. might need something changed.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-12-06 13:47
My instructor has me take a deeper breath than is normally comfortable, and apply articulation under the tip of the reed so that the reed never completely stops vibrating.
The idea is that the reed produces sound below the background noise generated by the ensemble when tongued, and the note is released to be heard.
Playing fast this way is for the top dogs - I can't do it.
Often, in the quietest passages, I must play the entire passage legato...
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-12-06 14:56
Hello beejay,
Provided that there is a number of orchestral forces playing, an orchestral ppp is much louder than a chamber ppp. Situaitonal considerations need to be recognized.
In either case, properly supporting the air is the most important thing you can do to improve your control PROVIDED that you're not Bi ing. If you have questions about suppot, then you should search here or read Tony Pay's tthread in the keepers BB.
YES, reed/mouthpiece can be considered...but I think that this combination is starting to get a bad rap or everything that doesn't work properly!
As to tonguing, if you cannot tongue softly without causing subtones from occuring then this is an indication that you can improve your tonguing method resulting with increased speed and controlled. Where you tongue is personal preference, but of course everyone has an opinion!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-06 15:25
You must support the most when playing really softy.
And yes, possibly your setup needs to be adjusted - you didn't mention if you are playing a 3, 3 1/2 or a 4 V-12.
D - possibly you have a leak even in your upper joint. Any dynamic on B or C is no problem. Any dynamic on any note is not a problem.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-12-06 15:50
Define ppp! (softer than pp, but not silent!)
Play a full-noble sound, but play it quietly --not faded out. The composer wants that sound in his/er harmonic structure, so it must be there.
Support the air column from your belly, but don't play loud --a conflicting thought, but you need to work it out so that you have the strong support without letting the air blast at the mouthpiece.
Being able to play softly is a great tool --using it appropriately in solo work and small ensembles will really make the audience lean forward trying to figure out what's going on --and will help hold their attention.
I noticed that many of the performers at this year's ClarinetFest faded to nothiness at the end of their performance --even going completely silent while holding their playing position. Neat, but common.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-12-06 15:55
Beejay -
What's happening? Do you have trouble keeping the airstream steady? Does your tone have a "bump" when your heart beats? Does your embouchure get tired? How about your breathing/blowing muscles? Does your throat close off? Your vocal cords?
Tony Pay has written that "support" means you blow just as hard at ppp as at fff, but use your diaphragm (which is the inhaling muscle) to balance off and thus decrease the air volume http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/04/000786.txt. However, when I try this, I quickly get tired, and the opposing muscles start to quiver. I just blow less hard.
In an orchestral setting, ppp is not particularly soft, since you have to make at least some contribution to the overall sound of instruments playing together. The criterion is that at ppp, you play so soft that you can't hear yourself (and at fff, you never play so loud that you can't hear everybody else).
When you play alone -- for example, in the Tchaikovsky 6th first movement solo, marked pppppp -- even there, you have to make enough sound to let the bassoon or bass clarinet pick up the line.
Anthony Gigliotti used extremely stiff reeds, yet I heard him play the Pines of Rome solo so softly that he could barely be heard. However, his tone had such energy that it was clearly audible at the back of a large, dead hall. For my take on how he did this, see http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=127492&t=127477.
So -- give us some more information and maybe we can help.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2007-12-06 19:17)
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2007-12-06 16:26
And how soft are you trying to play? If the front row of the audience can't hear you, I suggest it may be wasted effort. What can sound loud to the student may indeed be very soft to the audience.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-12-06 22:15
In an interview for The Clarinet, George Silfies commented to the effect that one must be able to play high e-flat, the opening note (in Wagner), ppp, every time, no exceptions, to play/stay principal in a major symphony.
richard smith
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-06 22:57
If someone is playing on too stiff a reed, getting that entrance is dicey.
There's a story about a Principal in a Canadian Orchestra (one of the main ones there, not Toronto) who screwed up that entrance and it ended up on the recording. After that, when somebody screwed up if it was major enough, they would say something out loud so that it couldn't be used from the cutting floor (obviously during a recording session, not a live performance).
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2007-12-06 22:58)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-12-07 03:06
A BIG part of it is the correct reed size. And that can vary depending the mouthpiece. I've had correct reed sizes ranging from 2.0 to a clipped 5.0 (making it harder) V12. A correct reed size, IMO, allows you to play very low notes softly without strain on your embochure or without a vast amount of wasted air being heard audibly over the tone. And also won't sacrifice tone at forte upper notes and allow you to play altissimo effortlessy. A lot to be had, but it can be accomplished with the right size and balancing.
To play ppp, I took some good advice from another person on this board. I learned for the entrance to Weber's Concertino (a clarion Bb that has to appear from nothing). I took another posters advice to start the air column without any pressure on the reed, and gradually increase the pressure of my bottom lip every so slightly so that it seemed to appear out of thin air. It took LOTS of practice (I believe I dedicated about 10 minutes every day for two weeks) to learn what combination of lip pressure and air speed would allow it to enter LITERALLY out of thin air, gradually grow at a slow and steady rate, and at the precise moment I WANTED it to enter. Then I added placing my tongue on the reed and gently 'releasing' the reed at the time I wanted the note to sound with the correct air and lip pressure I remembered from before.
I applied this practice to every note on the clarinet until I learned how to enter EVERY note at ppp and grow to fff. From low E to altissimo A (so far . . . ) I still need refresher training every now and then, but I get it back fairly quick since it's now more of a habit that needs to be re-learned every now and then instead of learning it for the first time. The problem notes for me were the altissimo range, throat tones (tend to respond very quickly), and clarion A, Bb, and C (very hard to have gotten those without undertones).
Hopefully this'll help.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-12-08 07:56
I would make sure you aren't biting.
Try bringing the corners of your mouth inwards. If you do this without the clarinet it should make the embouchure slightly more vertical.
(A smile makes it more horizontal)
Try this to an extreme degree (this is so you know you are actually doing it!) and see if it helps your soft playing.
I find that it improves the sound and stops the note from going sharp.
Theres other stuff about support here which is all fine and valid. But if the reed can't vibrate you don't have much to work with.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2007-12-12 08:37
I had to go away on a trip, and was delighted to find all these replies upon my return, for which my thanks to all of you. I must admit that I hadn't fully appreciated the importance of air support, and Tony Pay's article much added to my understanding here. The question was not playing softly per se, but playing long orchestral passages consistently at very low volume. As Ken Shaw said, this can get very tiring.
While remaining with V12 No 3 reeds, I have changed mouthpieces from a Vandoren M30 to a slightly more open Charles Bay. The increased resistance makes it easier to keep blowing fairly hard while diminishing the volume.
We have rehearsal tonight. Will let you know how it goes.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-12-12 14:41
This is what I do with my students:
Play a long tone, low G for instance, with only the air, i.e. no sound. Put as much air as possible in the horn but keep the tone at bay. You will hear the G as a ghost tone, very faint. Make sure the tone is absolutely still and unchanging. Gradually increase the tone volume to whatever dynamic you wish, always maintaining that air sound. Of course as you get louder, the air sound will decrease, but it is always there. The mistake I that most young clarinet players make is to eliminate the air sound thinking it is bad; quite the contrary! It *is* the sound. The air sound usually is only really audible at a close distance. Additionally, a flexible reed is needed.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-12-12 18:37
I eliminate the air sound, and don't find air in the tone to be acceptable at all at any volume. The reed must be flexible enough to allow any volume including softly without air in the tone.
That's the beauty of the list, many different styles here.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-12 19:30
...my airy sound is usually speckled with saliva. Kind of a musical stracciatella. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: beejay
Date: 2007-12-12 23:24
OK, we had rehearsal tonight and I think I managed a considerable improvement. Nevertheless, I need to play with more consistency. In long staccato passages, some notes were still too loud, and others didn't come out at all. But thanks to all your advice, I have something to work on as strive for improvement. It is definitely harder and more tiring to play consistently at low volume.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-12-13 04:09
Is it always the same notes that are louder than others? It could be a slight issue with the response of certain notes on your clarinet. Example: The clarinet I'm using right now (not my own) has a throat A that REALLY jumps out and the upper clarion notes are VERY soft using more or the less the same air column for the rest of the instrument. So I have to try to remember to lessen the A and try to blow the upper clarion notes a little louder to keep them the same level. I think the term for this is "evenness" throughout the clarinet. Maintain a steady airstream and chromatically go up the clarinet. You'll more than likely see differences in certain notes that are noticeably softer or louder than the rest of the instrument. The best clarinets have great tuning and great "evenness" throughout.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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