 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-12-05 00:49
Hi
Are there many professionals using the Rue Lepic reeds?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-12-05 06:10
I'm sure there must be somewhere, but I don't know any. Everyone here has tried them but sticks with V12.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-12-05 10:25
My teacher uses Rue Lepic on Selmer Signature clarinet and Lomax mouthpiece and he plays professionaly all around the world (mainly new music) both alone and with his group called Caput http://www.musik.is/Caput/ he also conducts and plays some eletronic and world music. His name is Guðni Franzson.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-12-05 12:13
Gee, I think the question should be ........Who uses Rue Lepics and Why?
I swear by them because they are a GREAT match for LONG lay mouthpieces. Some time ago Ben Redwine aptly put it that we are a divided camp amongst those who prefer short lay mouthpieces and those of us who play long lay mouthpieces. Once in one camp, you are there to stay. Therefore, I would say that the short lay folks amongst you probably would not reap the benefits of the slightly longer vamp.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-12-05 15:31
Middle ground players (that is length of lay) may, or may not benefit from the 56s.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-12-06 07:08
I just tried the Rue Lepics for the first time yesterday. I only tried one and it was very good. It was 2.5 and little soft so I'll try some more and also 3. No real difference from a good V12 (which I use usually), or even a regular one. When I get a good reed from them they all feel like.... a good reed.
BTW it was the first box I ever got with the seperate plastic wrap for each reed. Only now I know what is the flow package everyone was talking about on the forum before. Not only all that extra plastic but it is a real PITA to open each one IMO.
Post Edited (2007-12-06 07:11)
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-12-06 12:49
I am also trying them at the moment
To me they seem a bit one dimensional?
But I'll give it a week or two
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-12-06 14:33
They are narrower than V-12s. Almost looks like an Eb reed. I prefer the V12. Haven't met any pros personally who like 'em, but I guess there are some, like a couple who posted above.
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Author: graham
Date: 2007-12-06 15:22
I thought V12s were also supposed to be for long lays. What reed suits the shorter lay these days?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-12-06 19:33
Dear Graham,
Funny, I never really thought about it but there are a number of players who use (and really get good results with..) the Vandoren Austrian and German cut reeds. Since they were ultimately designed for smaller mouthpieces the whole reed (including the vamp which is shorter) is smaller. I never thought there was good reason to use these on French mouthpieces since they are narrower and don't cover the rails very well. But on reflection regarding this very topic, it does make some sense....perhaps.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-06 21:39
That tradition started independently in two parts of the world - at least in modern day orchestral practice.
In the Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam and other orchestras of Holland, the recordings one hears of the Netherlands Wind ensemble of over 30 years ago were made with clarinetists from these orchestra's clarinetists playing Schmidt Reform clarinets, Reform mouthpieces *with Eb reeds*! Talk about wiggle room on mouthpieces. And what a beautiful blend those clarinetists made with the other woodwinds in their own Dutch wind playing tradition.
Independently and at approx. the same time - perhaps a decade earlier, one of the Cleveland Orchestra clarinetists, 2nd desk player Jimmy Rettew, stumbled across several boxes of reeds while in a little music store while visiting Austria. This was in the late 50's. (Rettew died tragically of MS in 1960.) These were reeds that were taken about as seriously in their own country as Rico reeds were taken here in the 60's and 70's. No respect.
But Rettew showed the reeds to Marcellus and they all tried these thick blank, softer cane Viennese cut reeds (12.5mm tip width instead of the French 13mm) on their Kaspar mouthpieces. To their amazement they were the best reeds they had ever played. With a few modifications and a direct hook-up to the maker, Karl Firstl, who resided just outside of Vienna in a one room workshop attached to his home, they were able to work out an exclusive dealer in the US through Marcellus' long time student and friend, Carl Marks Jr. of Marks Music of Farrell, Penn, est. 1947.
The beauty of the German/Viennese style reed is that it put more depth and tonal weight into the French sound that had migrated directly from France through Bonade and was being modified slowly by his prize pupils in North America. It allowed a certain kind of flexibility being able to move the reed left or right on the mouthpiece instead of exactly balancing every reed to the nth degree - the possibility of losing the reed by miscalculating a scrape, or indeed letting that slightly out of balance fiber remain - perhaps as the only thing that was holding that reed together - was now a danger of the past.
The other thing that happened is that the reed was "quicker" AND had depth. The saying used to be that the reed "went like 60" if it was a lollipop out of the box - it vibrated with an aura or glow that was unparalleled. You had a length of vibration (depth) and speed for clarity's purpose (depth of sound to the staccato became one of the reed's hallmarks). Listen to the last movement of the Mozart with Marcellus as an example.
This started a whole new era in American clarinetistry and the results are traceable if you listen to enough recordings from over the years. The son of Morre - the V12, is finally getting things right and are almost as good as the original Morre's. The Rues are in another direction I believe and seem to be designed especially for ther own mouthpiece line.
BTW, for those that doubt it, (and there have been one or two posters that were openly hostile to the whole Morre description the last time I posted about this), I took out a couple boxes of Morre's from my stash last week - the old ones that I'm talking about - and it's not my imagination or some long lost nostalgia I'm talking about here. They produce qualities that every serious clarinetist that I've known pursue with an obsession. So those that think this is nothing but nostalgia talking here, I'm not here to play kissy-face with anyone - simply describing what I've lived then and know now.
Cheers!
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2007-12-06 22:46)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-12-07 00:08
Gregory,
I cannot help but be curious...... If you've tried Gonzales FOF and Alexander Classique reeds, what are your impressions of them? They are advertized as being based on the Morre.
Thanks, Roger
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-07 00:48
I can see that they are both in their own way based on the Morre as much as is the Vandoren V12. IMO, all are equally valid representations.
My own personal experience is that the V12 is the closest playing to the Morre, the FOF's a very close second and the Alexander a very distant third. That isn't to say that the FOF for some clarinetists plays more like the Morre, only that my individual experience is that Vandoren has come much closer...especially recently. Perhaps I simply do not know how (and I've read all of the threads here) to ultimately get them to play as well as the V12's.
But if you looked at the cane of an older Morre side by side with the V12 or the others, you would laugh out loud. The Morre is ideal in every respect as to color, taste (yes, taste), fiber distribution, and style of cut. That isn't to say that the combination of all of those factors (or lack thereof) and the different cut of the V12 or FOF brings it about as close to the real thing as possible...because I think it does...as long as they are broken in correctly and in the case of the V12, just a few fibers balanced out from the tip to no further down the vamp than 1mm.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2007-12-07 00:51)
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2007-12-07 02:36
Gregory,
is it true that Marcellus at one time used a reedual? I have heard from people that many Marcellus students use them or did at one point. If this is the case, is it possible to copy the exact design of the Morre? I assume that part of the Morre's quality comes from the cane but I find myself wondering if creating a reed with the exact dimensions of the Morre might yeild a high quality reed. Is the V12 an exact copy?
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-12-07 04:58
Make an *exact* copy with a reedual??????
Oh man, that one will have me laughing for a while...
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2007-12-07 05:55
"Oh man, that one will have me laughing for a while"
Why will that have you laughing? Because I said Exact? Well excuse me for asking a question from a memebr of a major orchestra who has a lot of information to share about this topic.
[ remainder of post snipped - GBK ]
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Author: graham
Date: 2007-12-07 08:53
Dear Paul
Thanks. Actually I use Black Master myself, though I have tried (and failed) with White Master. I would not say that my (main) mouthpiece is short lay, though, but the tip opening is fairly closed. I don't find any problem with the size of the reed. I will try the Black Master with my shorter lay mouthpiece as well, given your comments that they may suit a short lay.
graham
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-07 11:06
Ryan -
Yes he did. He was very interested in the possibilities of the machine being able to even improve on the Morre! That's how curious he was - always searching for better and better equipment for himself and his students.
I know of several students that were with him when he moved from Cleveland to Evanston in the mid 70's. They all talked about how he was very involved with cane sources, working one's own reeds - anything that might improve the plight of being dependent on commercially made reeds, the overall quality at the time being a problem, even with a bad batch of reeds from Morre every once in awhile.
A part of the curriculum at Northwestern while I was a student there were classes in how to make reeds. It was conceived of by Marcellus and taught at that time by Larry Combs assisted by Clark Brody. Use of the Reed dual was a large part of the class as Larry was making his own reeds at the time (some of the best being from Morre Basset Horn reeds)! Larry also had a tremendous background in making one's own reeds as was the tradition of his teacher Stanley Hasty.
We all benefited from making reeds from scratch, many of us designing our own planers, cutters, profilers, etc, with the help of a local machinist and saxophonist named Ted McDowell of nearby Skokie.
I still have many of those machines. The interest was still around several years later as I joined the CSO while Larry and I pursued some newly designed machines that were coming onto the market. One in particular was designed by an L.A. machinist named Ed Laker. We played these reeds for a short time in the orchestra. There never seemed to be enough time to follow through though, especially with our busy playing schedules.
One has to remember that this was at a time when Morre's were not being directly supervised by Marcellus any more and their quality was dropping precipitously. Vandorens and Oliveris were the commercial reeds of choice which, at the time, was not saying much. There were no V12's as of yet so one was lucky to have the connection to Marcellus and Marks to get anything above average at all.
BTW, Oliveris were descendants of the hybrid German style thick blank, less dense cane. But they were only available in a French width reed. Many were quite good at one time and were the main competitors to the Vandoren standard French cut reeds. They were very smooth sounding- perhaps too smooth leaning toward the duller side much of the time though they made good models along with the Morre to use on the Reed Dual.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-12-07 14:06
Gregory
If that is the kind of staccato you get from Viennese cut reeds then I will never use them(In fact I've tried Black masters on French mouthpiece with very bad result). The staccato that Marcellus use on the 3rd movement of the Mozart concerto is too harsh for me. In fact I've heard many many better versions of the Mozart concerto like John McCaw and New Phiharmonia orchestra,Gervase de Peyer and the London Symphony orchestra, Antony Pay and The academy of ancient music(orginal instrument versiona A=430) Harmen de Boer and Amsterdam sinfonietta just to name few.
I think in fact that there are lot better clarinetist in USA today than Marcellus or Bonade were.
I think I've light a fire now.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2007-12-07 15:06
Iceland,
I think it would be wise to listen to the music Marcellus made and not just the clarinet stuff. Listen to his phrasing and legato playing in the Cleveland recordings. There is more to clarinet playing than technique or what a players sound is like. Same goes for Bonade, Wright, Mclane, etc.
Also keep in mind that the great players from the past were being recorded on very old and obsolete recording equipment. Many of the players you say are better today (which doesn't really mean anything...better at what?) studied and were deeply influenced by Marcellus, Wright, Bonade, Russinoff, Mclane, etc. Often you make coments about a players tone being bland or harsh or staccato that is to harsh but rarely do you talk about phrasing or the quality of legato and projection, blend in a section, intonation and color, energy the player is creating through the instrument. In a more general way, try and describe how a player is transcending the instrument and making beautiful music.
Marcellus' recording of the Mozart may be "out dated" (for a lack of a better word) by todays standards, it is still an exceptional example of the Mozart Concerto. It's quick, light, transparent, elegant, and incredibly polished.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-07 15:44
Polemicists aside, anyone who can't learn at least something from each and every one of the Mozarts out there just can't, by definition, have a complete understanding of Mozart or music, much less their own instrument.
There have been many threads here over the years precisely about this particularly famous recording as well as the general interpretation of Mozart. It might be best to read or perhaps re-read at least a few of them.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-12-07 17:12
Ryan said:
"Marcellus' recording of the Mozart may be "out dated" (for a lack of a better word) by todays standards, it is still an exceptional example of the Mozart Concerto. It's quick, light, transparent, elegant, and incredibly polished".
Quick and light LOL but everybody has different opinion.
I can put out that I've heard old records with Reginald Kell,Fredrick Thurston(both not very old),Manuel Gomez,Charles and Hayn Draper(very old records) and to me they all play much better with much quicker and lighter staccato than Marcellus.
If a player lack greatly in one area suchs as staccato then for me I can't talk about the good things since that one area ruins everything in my opinion. For example Thea King has a ok sound and pretty good phrasing but her staccato is so horrible ugly I just can't stand her playing.
And Gregory just to mention(I've never heard you play solo just in the Chicago symphony Orchestra) I think that Larry Combs is for example much better than eather Marcellus or Bonade.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-12-07 21:40
I always loved Marcellus' style of staccato. I like the clarity and precision. That recording literally changed the way I thought of the clarinet, and about music in general. I could listen to it every day.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-12-07 22:22
Just to play devil's advocate a bit, I would like to re-submit a theory of mine that there are some players who through the particular way they generate their sound (very swift moving air, many upper partials present) may NOT have that sound reproduce well in a recorded medium.
I have heard both Robert Marcellus and Stanley Drucker in live situations and have been bowled over by the depth of sound and power that they had since the recordings of them that I'd heard prior led me to believe otherwise.
Mr. Pay also sounds wonderful in person, very much the way he comes off in recordings. I have no idea what that all means. It is only what I've observed.
Of course everyone is entitled to hear a recording in their own way, and every recording must stand on its own merits.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-12-07 22:53
Fascinating history of Morre reeds and how they affected American clarinet playing. Thanks Gregory and Ryan and others for an interesting discussion.
Iceland guy: Several of your posts lately have been rather pointed and highly critical of others. Is the increasing darkness up there making you grumpy? :-)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-12-08 06:01
Claritoot26 you think that all clarinetist are good? I don't!!!!!! I can highly critical a player as much as you can praise him. And I did praise some other clarinetist
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-04-12 15:59
I just foolishly bought a box right before an audition that is coming up. Despite being a huge fan of Vandoren products, I found these reeds to be bright and edgy. I will be going to the store to buy an emergency box of v-12s to get me through the audition.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2012-04-12 16:44
I'm digging them with a fairly close MP opening. The 56, 3 1/2 strengths fit my setup very well.
There is plenty of wood in the spine and no problems hitting the high C way above the staff and actually all the wat up to above that super high C to an F. At a recent concert fellow players were very surprised about how the sound carries and the not dark nor a bright sound. Perhaps an American sound, which is becoming the standard in European countries. Even the German countries.
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