 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2007-12-02 00:38
I need to get a good Eb sop. and trying them is not an option for me right now. Does an R13 present more or fewer intonation problems than an RC?
I’ve read the posts on the Patricola, and opinion seems to be mixed. Does anyone have anything to add?
Thanks
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Author: TaylorM
Date: 2007-12-02 01:44
I own an R13 E-flat and I find it to be extremely sharp in the upper register (above the staff in the left hand, to be specific), its a good thing I don't have to play it much :*) Almost everyone that I have talked to about it says that the RC is the way to go. I do however like the sound on my E-flat.
~Taylor Massey
Post Edited (2007-12-20 20:07)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-12-02 02:31
Without question, the RC ebs, particularly the RC Prestige, are better in tune.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-12-02 03:17
Yeah go for the rc prestige. The Patricola actually is a super instrument. I played one for a while but got an RC when I had the opportunity.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-02 04:29
I own both models and have played them numerous times on most all of the major orchestral repertoire.
If you prefer the R13, it is possible to get it to play as well in tune as the RC. The register vent needs to be relocated higher toward the top end of the instrument so that the A, B, & C at the top of the 2nd register are brought down to correspond with the lower 12th.
This has been a design characteristic of the R13 Eb that Buffet has not sufficiently addressed. There is no reason that I can think of that the 12ths need be so far apart.
Moving the register vent to it's proper location on the R13 adds about $450 - $500 to the price of the instrument. But if you prefer the R13, it's the only way to go. Maybe Buffet will eventually move the vent to it's proper location.
Guy Chadash (Google him) has successfully done the register relocation many times for me, my clients, and colleagues. Perhaps there are other repair persons that have experience doing the same.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2007-12-02 07:09
Thanks for the helpful information. It will save me a lot of time and possibly a costly mistake.
SK
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-12-02 07:19
Greg,
When the register key is moved on the R13, is it moved to the same position as on the RC? And, after it is moved, how would you describe the differences between the RC and the modified R13?
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-12-02 13:42
If you can get past the onus, the Buffet E11 Eb clarinet is a terrific instrument and an incredible bargain!
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-12-02 14:22
The Selmer Recital Eb is also quite good. Hard to find.
I own one and like its sound. Just my opinion.
I hear some of the older Selmers are good too, but I have no personal experience with them.
Many top players favor the RC Prestige, but Greg offers a nice alternative (see above).
From what I can tell, the Patricolas are OK, but seem to benefit from an aftermarket addition. I would have to had my retail disclaimer to this post to discuss to issue further.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-02 14:46
The register relocation for the R13 is actually higher up than the RC. G. Chadash also uses a slightly different register vent of his own design that helps with many things.
I have always believed the R13 design, no matter the pitch of the clarinet, superior to the RC in the most fundamental of ways.
The R13 *RC* Eb that I play is used for some special repertoire because of it's tendency toward brilliance - the pronounced flare below the cylinder acting as a sort of megaphone. This is the most important acoustical characteristic that sets the RC design apart from the R13.
The RC design is not what I look for in an everyday clarinet sound. I have always played R13 Nickel Bb, A, C, D, & Eb's...that is unless someone, somewhere, someday, comes along and out-R13's the R13.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-03 00:35
Has the RC Eb got a larger bore than the R13 Eb in general, or has it got a larger flared section to the bore going into the lower tenon?
I only know this as my R13 Eb sticks on my oboe pegs (I've made a foam spacer ring to prevent this, which works with my d'amore as well), and an RC Eb player's didn't stick at all when he used the same peg.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-12-03 13:25)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-03 13:08
My understanding is that the cylinder was designed to be the same size for both Eb's. Perhaps the flare opens up a little earlier on the RC hence the easier time you have fitting it to the peg.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory.smith.com
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-12-04 12:23
skennedy,
If you can spare the $$, go for the Prestige. It is really a remarkable advance in terms of the sound, intonation (very solid high notes and pretty sounds) and keywork compared with the R13. Have received more compliments for my Eefer playing since I bought one than I could've imagined. This horn really SINGS.
Chris, I often use the Rigoutat oboe stand and it works on the Prestige Eb, although i have a BG stand for it too.
Efer guy
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-04 13:13
For clarification:
The Prestige is simply a designation of any particular model (R13, RC, etc,) but with more bells and whistles. The basic acoustical functions of the R13 or the RC remain the same whether in regular or Prestige versions.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-12-04 16:49
Actually the Prestige Eefer is QUITE different than the R13. For one thing it is in FIVE PIECES not four.
I actually play tested a number of these vs. a replacement for my R13 about 3 years ago. The Prestige horns ALL played better, more in tune, and much better feel of the instrument. The high E was bad on EVERY R13 and RC but not on one of the Prestiges. So it may be a similar body but whoever is putting the Prestige Eefers together was doing a MUCH better job. I just had my Prestige overhauled by Walter Grabner, whom I'm sure has seen lots of RC's go over his bench. He actually wrote me and said he was JEALOUS!
Eefer guy
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-12-04 16:53
Eefer guy, I'm very confused by your post. You keep refering to the R13 and RC vs. the "Prestige," but "Prestige" is usually just a designation of the highest workmanship and materials within a series of instruments. I am aware of an RC Prestige, but nothing called a Prestige on its own.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-12-04 17:33
Yes it's a Prestige RC. And it is DIFFERENT than the RC not just one with high workmanship. The Prestige RC is split into more parts whereas the RC or R13's have the middle joints as one as in most Eefers. The Prestige RC Bb MIGHT be the same as the RC Bb, but that is NOT the case for the Eefers.
Hope that clarifies it.
Eefer guy
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-12-04 19:41
Although that is a consideration that you must have personally dismissed through trial Eefer guy: Wouldn't the two part body be just begging for another poor placement of the C#/G# key?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2007-12-04 20:05
You would think so but the G and G# are more in tune on the Prestige than the R13 and the RC's!
Eefer guy
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2007-12-04 22:42
I've played hundreds of regular R13 Eb's (and Prestige R13 Eb's) and RC Eb's (including Prestige RC Eb's), for both myself and my clients. That includes dozens of Eb instruments of all types on any given day. For that matter, same with the combination of both RC and R13 Bb's.
Regardless of whether there is a two part body or not, a Prestige label added, keys added, or tenon caps added, on average - and by that I mean the average of all clarinets of a single type - I have found there to be no difference between the playing quality of a Prestige or "regular" clarinet.
One has to try many samples over long periods of time to determine these kinds of quality "averages".
I'm not saying that there haven't been some examples of this or that Eb that seemingly trumps the "other" type, but statistically speaking, I've found that there is simply no overall difference in general quality between Prestige and non-Prestige instruments.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2007-12-05 00:56)
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2008-01-10 16:50
Great news for me
I ended up getting a new R 13 Eb and having Guy Chadash relocate the register vent. I've had it for less than 24 hours and I am very impressed with the result. The intonation is very much like my Bb/ A setup, and my only problem is to make sure I don't play it too long for break-in purposes.
Thank you Gregory Smith for the great advice.
BTW, I do wish Buffet would regulate the spring pressure on their new instruments. I try to play with as little finger pressure as possible, but some of these key springs (esp the lower rings) are way too stiff.
Steve Kennedy
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2008-01-10 17:02
I have a Selmer Recital also and I love it. It has a beautiful sound. It does have some tuning issues but don't they all.
We had a Patricola come through the shop and my good friend ended up buying it. They are quite good. I think it compares to my Recital but I didn't really get to know the horn that well.
I played a series 9 a couple years ago and liked it but it did not compare to my Recital.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-01-10 17:48
Congrats, Steve. As Allan mentioned above, there some aftermarket items that can make a great Eb even better.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2008-01-10 19:10
Allan Segal says:
Quote:
I hear some of the older Selmers are good too, but I have no personal experience with them.
I have an old (early 60's) Selmer Series 9 Eb that plays great. I have had this instrument for a few years. I had some tuning work done on it to adjust a little sharpness at the top left hand A, B, and C and added a Fobes barrel. It has a nice full sound, is easy to play and is well in tune. The rings also feel slightly larger than on many Ebs, so it feels very comfortable in your hands.
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