 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tim
Date: 2000-08-01 17:36
I no longer have a teacher (although I will be sorting that our soon) and for the past couple of months I have been struggling on my own, trying to get a good tone. I have been trying to form a good embouchure, but find that when I stop biting the tone goes flat, especially in the high register. I have been trying everything I could think of but to no avail. And then I tried changing ligatures. For the last year or so, after my teacher suggested it, I got a "Super Revelation" ligature, and have been using it since. But today I switched back to my old ligature, and found that I could pitch the higher notes with much greater ease. I am using a E13 Buffet clarinet with a 5RV mouthpiece, and am using 2 1/2 strength Rico thick blank reeds. So I was wondering, should I use a harder reed, or is it just my embouchure at fault?
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2000-08-01 18:55
That is a pretty soft reed. When I was playing one I was using 3 or 3 1/2 and I use softer reeds than a lot of people. You didn't really say what part of the high register you are having problems with. The altissimo? The clarion? The upper clarion notes? etc. There could be some other things going on such as the barrel.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-08-01 21:21
Well a 2 1/2 Rico is pretty soft for higher notes though there are players who are successful using soft reeds.
Here's a couple of things to look at. High notes need high pressure air to keep from going flat regardless of the amount of air that you are putting through the instrument. So breath support is very important. Higher notes also need a firmer embouchure but *NOT* biting. Biting makes the notes shrill. I like to use a mattress analogy. There are soft mattresses and firm mattresses. Both just lay there on the bed but support your body differently. Neither one actively pushes on your body.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2000-08-02 11:36
When I picked up my horn after a 25yr layoff, I started with a 2 1/2 on my 5RV. It sounded fine until top line F or top space G. Beyond that it was flat. Same for you?
The 5RV will easily accomodate harder reeds. Move to a 3 to see if your problem lessens; 3 1/2 is even more to its' liking for a player in good shape.
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Author: Tim
Date: 2000-08-02 17:43
Fred wrote:
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When I picked up my horn after a 25yr layoff, I started with a 2 1/2 on my 5RV. It sounded fine until top line F or top space G. Beyond that it was flat. Same for you?
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Yeah, when I reach top space G the tone starts to go a little flat, and when I get to the E above that it can be at times almost a whole semitone flat. Checked out the Vandoren website and for the 5RV they gave 3/3,5/4 recommended for traditional, and 3,5/4/4,5 for V12, and although I am confused as to what that means exactly, none of those numbers are 2 1/2. The thing that made me wonder was when I changed ligatures. Does anyone know if 2 1/2 is unsuitable for a BG super revelation ligature? Anyway, thanks for all your help, I'll try experimenting with different reeds, and if that doesn't help I can eliminate that as a factor.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-08-02 17:47
Tim wrote:
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<br>for the 5RV they gave 3/3,5/4 recommended for traditional, and 3,5/4/4,5 for V12, and although I am confused as to what that means exactly, none of those numbers are 2 1/2.
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<br>Commas are used a decimal points many places, so it means 3/3.5/4 for traditionsal and 3.5/4/4.5 for V12. In other words, a much stiffer reed than a 2.5 is suggested.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-08-02 20:54
Mark Charette wrote:
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Tim wrote:
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for the 5RV they gave 3/3,5/4 recommended for traditional, and 3,5/4/4,5 for V12, and although I am confused as to what that means exactly, none of those numbers are 2 1/2.
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Commas are used a decimal points many places, so it means 3/3.5/4 for traditionsal and 3.5/4/4.5 for V12. In other words, a much stiffer reed than a 2.5 is suggested.
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Also you need to be aware that Vandoren reeds run stiffer for the same designation than most other reeds. So if they recommend a minimum of 3 in traditional Vandoren, that means you will need a 3.5 in the various Rico lines (regular, Rico Royal, or MitchelL Lurie).
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-08-03 03:13
Does anyone know if 2 1/2 is unsuitable for a BG super revelation ligature?
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I doubt that the strength of the reed and the ligature have much to do with one another, however the ligature, in your case the same as mine, does change the tone that you get. With a 5RV, you tend to have to use harder reeds to get out a good in tune sound, I used to use V12 4's with mine to get a good in tune high G, but now I use V12 3/5s and 3 with a B45. I personally think you should shoot for a harder reed, b/c Ricos tend to run softer than the Vandorens do, and I would also try out a better quality reed; they aren't the best reeds out there by any stretch of the imagination!
Sara
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Author: Tim
Date: 2000-08-03 17:16
I'm going to try experimenting with some harder reeds. But before I buy, could anyone recommend which reed to buy. As Sara mentioned, I could get a better quality reed than Rico. I've used Vandorens before, but I've heard that although many agree they play the best, they are a little inconsistent, and I found this myself, amongst other problems. That's why someone recommended the Rico Grand Concert Select to me a while ago - they said that all the reeds in thier box were consistent. Also, how do the strengths of reeds anyone would happen to mention compare to Vandorens? One last thing, how many reeds should I buy if I am just experimenting? I don't really want to buy a whole box. Would 3-4 reeds suffice? Thanks for all your help.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2000-08-03 17:23
I am playing 2.5 Vanodoren reeds on a Zinner mp, German system. German system means the reeds are smaller and thus may feel harder. Anyway, pitch is no problem until F three lines above the staff, even for a relative beginner like me.
But I do need some support from above the mp, which you may already classify as biting. So the question is: Do you really bite too much, or are you just feeling uncomfortable with the relative differences in reed pressure you need? Note, that by physical reasons pressure from above and below the mp must be equal.
Rene
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-08-03 23:14
Tim, I've had good luck w/ the Grand Concert Thick Blanks - they're almost exactly the same as the V12s but in my case I feel they're more consistent. I'd start with a 3 if I were you (a 3 1/2'll feel like a popsicle stick)
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-08-04 00:14
I've been meaning to try out the Grand concert think blanks but have yet to do do. I kind of like the sound that the V12's give and their fairly consistant for me with only a small amount of sanding if any, is needed. The local music store doesn't sell them, so if i do try them i guess I'lll have to order from the WW and BW. Do the Grand Concert thick blanks give the same type of sound as the V12s?
Sara
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-08-04 01:04
Sara wrote:
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Do the Grand Concert thick blanks give the same type of sound as the V12s?
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For me they do.
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Author: Meredith H
Date: 2000-08-04 01:55
I have been a devotee of Vandoran reeds for years. I tried the Rico Grand Concert and didn't like them but then I tried the GC Thick Blanks and I think they are wonderful. Certainly more like the Vandoran reeds than the standard GC reeds (besides which they are $7.00 a box cheaper than Vandoran Classic and $12.00 cheaper than V12 reeds in Aust).
Tim, GC concert reeds have trial cards of reeds that good music stores should give you for free in order to try them. They have the standard GC reed and the thick blanks. Each card has 3 reeds on it ranging in strength. One has 2/2.5/3 and the other has 3/3.5/4. Other makes of reed may offer the same sort of thing. Contact your local music store and find out. That is how I discovered GC thick blanks. I prefer my reeds a bit softer than a lot of people and I play on a GC thick blank 3 with a Vandoran 5RVlyre mouthpiece. The standard 5RV will probably require a slightly stiffer reed so you will probably be looking for a 3 or 3.5. Bear in mind that you will only get 1 reed but that should be enough to find out whether you like or hate the reed, if you think they have possibilies buy a few more and give them a good work out.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-08-04 06:34
1.International music supplier URL has a reed strength comparison chart. Vandoren V12 is softer than traditional Vandoren.(Uses softer part of bigger diameter canes.)
2.I'd suggest to change to B40. This mouthpiece is designed (by Guy Deprus?) for softer reeds including 2.5.
3.I liked B40 and Olivieri 2.5 matching about 20 years ago.
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Author: Tim
Date: 2000-08-04 18:55
First, thanks to everyone - you have been most helpful.
Today when I was practising I dug out an old Vandoren reed that I still had. Now it was still a 2.5, and a little dirty, but I found an instant improvement in my embouchure -that is, I could get the high notes easier without so much of the biting.
Sorry about all the questions - this is my last one, I promise. Although I've been using GC select reeds, I was wondering if I really needed to - the point being that I am only a student of Grade 5 level. BTW, the Vandorens I used before were just regular ones - not the V12's. So should students be buying these kinds of reeds?
Tim
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-08-04 19:43
Tim wrote:
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BTW, the Vandorens I used before were just regular ones - not the V12's. So should students be buying these kinds of reeds?
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Why not????? If the reeds are good (and considering the price differential to be miniscule in almost all cases) why not use the best reeds you can find? It <b>does</b> make a difference - they time you don't spend fiddling with a reed or struggling with a stuffy or squeaky note is time spent on playing or practicing.
Reeds & mouthpieces are the 2 most important things, and reeds are pretty cheap.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-08-04 23:01
Tim wrote:
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... Sorry about all the questions - this is my last one, I promise. Although I've been using GC select reeds, I was wondering if I really needed to - the point being that I am only a student of Grade 5 level. BTW, the Vandorens I used before were just regular ones - not the V12's. So should students be buying these kinds of reeds?
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Don't stop asking questions, that's how you learn.
I agree with Mark. Never skimp on reeds. It's penny wise and pound foolish. Fighting cheap, poor quality reeds makes playing a chore rather a joy. Only a really good player can get a good sound out of bad reeds and bad mouthpieces and they will invest in good ones rather than put up with bad ones.
When my daughters started playing, I didn't even consider buying cheapie reeds for them. I started them on Mitchell Luries since these seem to play extremely well right out of the box. The trade off is that these reeds are short lived but since kids tend to break them now and then, that wasn't much of a drawback.
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Author: Sara
Date: 2000-08-05 02:31
I agree, never buy the cheap stuff, there's no point in having a pro clarinet and a $200 mouthpiece and crappy reeds. If anything have a mediocre horn and great reed and ligature. Reeds are the cheapest and probably the most important thing, its what makes the sound along with the mouthpiece. Good luck with the search, but if I were you I would seek the aid of a competent teacher; it might save you some time and money in the long run with a point in the right direction!
Sara
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Author: Tim
Date: 2000-08-05 13:35
Thank you for your reassurance concerning reeds. I was a little confused because of certain poor quality reeds that are supposed to be "ideal for students" and suchlike.
Sara wrote:
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Good luck with the search, but if I were you I would seek the aid of a competent teacher; it might save you some time and money in the long run with a point in the right direction!
Sara
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Thanks for your advice; I have already sought a competent teacher, only I have to wait till september till he can fit me in. For the past 3 years I've been learning with a teacher that in my view isn't all that good. I mean, he's a great clarinettist, but not necessarily a good teacher. I was taught by a different teacher for about a year before him, and he was great, but I had to change, and after that I pretty much lost interest, and progress was slow. Anyway, that should all be sorted out soon, and I won't have to be so dependant on everyone here at the Clarinet Bulletin Board. Thanks again to everyone.
Tim
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-08-07 11:58
The ligature is the key to your particular problem. I do not know the "super revelation" ligature, although its name is not exctly encouraging. And you don't say what your old ligature is. It may be that your playing is generally being "thrown out" by the new ligature, and familiarisation would improve matters, but I also suspect that the ligature might be at fault, or perhaps the degree of tightness you use in attaching it to the mouthpiece. I use a bog standard metal ligature. I used to use a Rovner, but I didn't like the intonation. If, after giving the "super revelation" a fair try, the differences between the two ligatures remain, then go back to the old ligature. Strictly speaking, softer reeds should play as well in tune in the upper register as harder ones unless they are being pushed too loud. Endless experimentation with reeds is disorientating. You do not want to have become a nervous wreck by the time you start with your new teacher.
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