 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-24 03:45
What precisely does undercutting the tone holes achieve, and how important is it in general? What if a very old hard rubber clarinet has no undercutting? Would it bennefit the instrument if a clarinet maker undercut the holes at this point?
Thanks.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-11-24 11:24
It's very important since it can ruin the intonation if not done properly. More pro advice will probably follow.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-24 12:26
Undercutting shortens the height of the toneholes through the body wall of the clarinet reducing resistance, but also affects pitch stability (flexibility) and tuning from register to register. But that's all I know in theory, and would also like to know more from practice.
As well as undercutting, toneholes can also be tapered from the top side to further increase flexibility and alter the tuning (making the tonehole hourglass-shaped in cross section) - again this is something I'd like to know more about from experience rather than theory.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-24 13:57
Yamaha pro clarinets had tapered and undercut toneholes from what their literature used to show (with a cross section of a top joint) - not sure if they still do.
A Howarth clarinet that has been cross sectioned on a bandsaw (hanging up on a wall in the finisher's room) also has them.
I don't know about Buffet, Selmer or Leblanc, though I assume they may have - either throughout or on certain toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-24 14:34
> A Howarth clarinet that has been cross sectioned on a bandsaw
Is there no end to clarinet torturing? A lamp hasn't been fine enough for you fellers, eh? What's next? Door handles made out of joints?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-24 14:42
I once used a plastic clarinet barrel as a replacement handle for a shaving brush.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-11-24 14:56
to add to ChrisPs ... let's jump back for a second and look at tonehole width
For example, on older Selmer clarinets the toneholes are usually fairly large cylindrical toneholes.
If you have a pure conical tonehole you basically can gain some of the advantages of a larger tonehole but with a smaller opening (easier to cover)
for simplicity, the larger the tonehole the more clearer / louder the sound you can get. So undercutting them gets you a slight advantage over not undercutting them.
But keep in mind when you undercut them you also increase the volume of the instrument, which can affect intonation. But i don't have enough spare clarinets to start fiddling with. once you undercut it's hard to glue the shavings back in !!
the undercutting tools are quite expensive too. but i'm waiting for a sharp clarinet to try them on. guess i could always use a shorter barrel too.
ChrisP ... maybe we should make grenadilla door knobs !!
put that on the list with solid superglue barrels .. except the door knobs are much more feasible.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-24 18:43
And with the help of a bandsaw I could become the Gunther von Hagens of the woodwind world, demonstrating through the medium of dissection the kind of damage caused to woodwinds by neglect or careless handling, obviously using donor clarinets whose owners have consented to them being used for dissection after they've given up playing them.
Undercutting on oboes is pretty extensive on some toneholes, and older ones often have massive undercutting on the Eb and C# toneholes, so much undercutting that the crown of the bedplace loks at risk of collapsing into the bore as very little wood is left above and below.
It's not a new or a Western phenomenon as some very old shakuhachis even have undercut toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-24 18:51
Chris P wrote:
> And with the help of a bandsaw I could become the Gunther von
> Hagens of the woodwind world
Mind if we call you Klarinetenstein from now on? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-24 20:25
Is that Klarinetenstein as in the monster, or the doctor?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-24 20:41
> Is that Klarinetenstein as in the monster, or the doctor?
c'mon...who of them was more likely to have used superglue?
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-11-24 20:41)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-11-24 21:30
For more than a hundred years the undercutting was used on the small bore Pro clarinets. Around 1930 Selmer, Conn etc. started experimenting with a large bore. Not many people realize that a large bore design has nothing to do with a smaller bore design. "Large bore" is the bore dominated design. "Small bore" is the tone hole dominated design. By design a large bore clarinet doesn't require undercutting at all but the small bore design depends on it.
Before you decide if undercutting would benefit your instrument you should have a basic knowledge about bore designs, tone hole placement and size that would benefit the particular design.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-11-24 22:28)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-11-24 23:06
Undercutting a tone hole is done to raise the pitch of the low register note with little effect on the corresponding upper register note. It also tends to open up or focus the low register sound at the same time. Undercutting all the tone holes on an Evette "Master" model clarinet a while back really made a significant improvement in the pitch relationship of the 12ths as well as the overall sound. Happy Holidays!
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-11-25 00:31
Undercutting should be considered before cutting of the tone holes.
Not afterthought.
If you attempt to try undercutting now ,intonation will be screwed up completely.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-11-25 02:15
Wes wrote:
>"Undercutting a tone hole is done to raise the pitch of the low register note with little effect on the corresponding upper register note".<
If it was true we would never have any problems with the wide twelves on the clarinet. Happy Holidays!
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-11-25 02:25)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-25 02:44
So what DOES undercutting do? Changing nothing else and only undercutting the toneholes produces what result? Please explain.
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-25 04:36
Yes...I'm still confused. Let's put it this way. I have a Selmer "Manhattan" hard rubber (I think...unless it's bakelite) Bb clarinet that requires an overhaul. It was manufactured out of Elkhart, IN. I have no idea what the age is. It could be anywhere from the '20s to the '50s.
My question is, would undercutting the toneholes at this point make the overall tone better, worse, or do nothing at all?
I haven't even played it yet, as it is missing some corks and pads.
I believe the barrel and bell are made of a different material than the joints, since they haven't turned greenish, but the joints have. I know the barrel and bell belong to the original instrument because they also have the "Manhattan" logo engraved into them.
Does this help date it?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-25 07:55
> My question is, would undercutting the toneholes at this point make the
> overall tone better, worse, or do nothing at all?
I don't think it would do something to the tone, only the pitch.
--
Ben
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-11-25 15:41
I see...
So, if there aren't any pitch problems after a pro overhaul, then any sort of undercutting would be meaningless?
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-11-27 19:25
Somewhat (OK totally) off-topic but, Vytas, would you say Selmer started using large bore design before 1930? I'm just thinking of your remarks about my "winged globe" c. 1928 (or so) Bb you overhauled. Huge bore.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-11-27 19:42
I've overhauled quite a few Boosey & Hawkes clarinets of various models (Edgware, Series 2-20, Series 8-10, Imperial 926, and a couple of Symphony 1010s) which, except for the latter model, are functionally identical -- .593" bore with no tonehole undercutting. I've also done some older Selmers (e.g. Centered Tone, and the predecessor model some people call the "Brevette S.D.G.D") which have rather similar acoustical designs.
In most cases these clarinets 'as received' had some fuzzy and/or stuffy notes somewhere in their range. As part of their overhauls I slightly undercut all their toneholes (actually a radiussing/bevelling process rather than a true undercut) and in nearly all cases the fuzziness or stuffiness disappeared, with little or no discernible effect on intonation, pitch stability or tone quality. Because of this experience I now do this mild 'pseudo-undercutting' on every instrument I work on which comes with "straight" toneholes, as I've experienced benefits in nearly every case, with no adverse effects.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-11-27 20:30
Bill,
You're right. I do not know EXACT date. That's way a used the word the "AROUND" 1930.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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