 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-13 04:01
I would like to hear some opinions on a subject that might seem negative, but I think a lot of us (especially those that want to make [or are making] a living in music) think about and might have different ideas based on the words of this or that teacher or friend... or personal experience.
The subject is natural limits and natural talent.
Do you believe in them? Do you feel that some people are "just better" than others?
Is it all just about practice, practice, practice, or is it possible that there is a plateau in which we will stop our progress, no matter how hard we try? And that difference in ability is that one person's plateau is different than another's.
I would like to also hear from teachers, please. It might be something that you don't say in the lesson, but do you ever feel that one student just shines above all the others, without putting in more practice than others- ie. the student is "a natural"? Do you find that some students can do anything just as well as others, but they have one technique or scale or somthing that they just can't do. Or maybe they have one aspect of their technique that is just outstanding compared to all the other students?
OR- do you feel it is all in the practice time and that those who are better just practice more?? In this case, the conclusion seems that those that have a lifestyle in which they can practice more will invariably get better than the person doing a full-time or near-full-time job and practicing as much as they can, but not enough as the person that doesn't have to worry much about things like rent money or bills.
I expect this is a sensitive subject for a lot of us- it is for me.
Your thoughts...
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Author: nes
Date: 2007-11-13 04:13
Albeit the sensitivity, some have more natural talent then others.
Everyone on earth is better than another at something, we all have ut strengths. It therefore goes without saying that this applies to music. Ofcourse some musicians are naturally better. But lots of practice applies to any serious muso regardless of their natural talents.
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2007-11-13 04:51
The greatest players are the greatest "imaginers." The player who can imagine playing more than their technique, will raise their technique to equal what they imagined. The key is continue to imagine. The truth is that there is no limit to the depth of musical interpretation.
One of my greatest teachers used to draw a chart that illustrates this point.
our technique is a flat line. Hopefully, our imagine is a wild crazy line above and beyond our current technique, and we need to strive to raise that technique line above the craziness line that we imagine. The imagine some more....raise the bar.
Thanks
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-13 06:26
We had this discussion a few days ago. It was about the level of our band, and the consensus was that an amateur with just so many practicing hours per week will sooner or later approximate his/her personal limit (just as a bird's possible weight has an upper limit where more weight will require more muscles which will add more weight which requires....)
Talent will be able push that limit higher, as will additional practicing, and within bounds these two are interchangeable, but of course talent plus practicing is what makes an artist appear in concert hall or on CD.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-11-13 11:15
It must be a combination of both the innate and the hard work. You take a fellow like Julian Bliss who at the age of 13 played better than many who have been playing for 13 years. Then there are the testimonials of players who speak of 8 to 10 hour days practicing (and I'm talking clarinet players - I wish I knew how to achieve that amount of stamina).
But there is also an amount of letting the natural learning happen without letting the over analytical side of yourself get in the way, as is so succinctly spelled out in Timothy Gallwey's book "The Inner Game of Tennis."
If you believe Gallwey, perhaps many of us NEVER reach our full potential because we put so many unecessary obstacles in our own path.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Robyn_765
Date: 2007-11-13 12:52
I'm sure natural talent plays a part, but what good is talent without motivation, dedication and even opportunity? A talent can't be developed without practice - even a person with an immense amount of natural talent can't pick up a clarinet (or other instrument) one time and play perfectly...and a person wouldn't know they were gifted in that way unless they picked that instrument up the first time.
On the other hand, I would imagine that given enough time and real practice. A person lacking natural talent would be able to emulate - technically at least - the most talented musician. Hypothetically of course - this wouldn't be true for every person..
Maybe the real difference is the learning curve, and the ability to create versus copy. I would imagine there is a plateau for every person - even the most talented - but that point would probably be completely different for each person and maybe not ever reached by some????
-- Robyn
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Author: TomD
Date: 2007-11-13 13:07
Is it also reasonable to believe that there are also physical genetics involved? By that I mean some people might have fingers that are too fat, too skinny, too long, too short, etc. The makeup of their joint structure including ligaments, tendons etc. might come into play. These factors can certainly be mitigated with much practice but will that person always be at a slight disadvantage compared with someone that has the same natural talent but better genetics? These factors could even be more important as one ages. I believe it's just like in sports where some people can punish their bodies and never have injuries and yet others who do all of the proper warm-up, etc., always have injuries. I also attribute this to genetics and again, with age, these genetic factors loom even larger. JMHO
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Author: Margaret
Date: 2007-11-13 13:27
Hi,
I like this quote, from a famous, former Russian ballerina:
"No one can arrive from being talented alone. God gives talent; work transforms talent into genius." Anna Pavlova
I do think that some people are more talented in music than others. I agree with whomever said that everyone is talented in some way, even though they may not be talented in music.
BTW, she *was* a dancing genius.
Margaret
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-11-13 13:41
Here's something that I learned at a Doctoral Lecture on the Brain and learning:
Your talent (god given talent) grows until you hit puberty, then the wires harden and you have what you have. So a good exposure to musical training before that point can actually improve that talent level - more efficient wires so to speak.
I had 3 Monster students who also all worked really hard. It was quite an education for me to see them grow in their playing (I started them all in 5th grade).
The least strong of the 3 was 1st Chair Pennsylvania All State Band, and Principal Clarinetist of the Philadelphia Youth Orchestra, the best was a Winner in the ICA Senior Competition while still in High School and the Interlochen Concerto Competition and in a single weekend performed the Stravinsky L'Histoire and Bartok Contrasts in a radio broadcast and live with an audience - as a Junior.
Among the 3 of them the best one could learn a piece which took the other 2 over a week to learn in a day. He actually learned one of the ICA competition pieces overnight as the music never came until the day before we have to overnight it, and he had to cram to record it.
Somebody with more talent and hard work will almost always beat someone with lesser talent with the same work.
Only if that lesser talented player works a LOT and I mean a LOT can then compete succesfully and yes, they often can do it.
Trouble is that you don't and won't know your limits until you work hard enough to see them and that's just the start.
Also, players develop at different rates of time.
There was a player who used to sit several chairs behind me in Wind Ensemble - he wasn't a hot player at all as far as I was concerned, but now has a pretty good Principal Clarinetist gig in a known Orchestra.
He worked really hard and eventually got very good.
Know your limitations, then exceed them, but always have a good backup plan......
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2007-11-13 14:05)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-13 14:04
A concert master I know once said to me that, 'Talent is the ability to practice for hours today and have the drive to get up and do it again tomorrow and the next day and the day after that.'
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Author: awm34
Date: 2007-11-14 02:32
I dare say none of us on this bulletin board could ever hit a baseball into the center field bleachers of Yankee Stadium no matter how many hours (and even years) we devoted to it.
Some minimum amount of talent is required for difficult jobs.
Alan Messer
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