 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2007-11-12 23:11
As I have been observing my playing, I've been noticing it doesn't resonate. It's clear and dark, but it doesn't have the lasting resonance that is characteristic of a truly excellent clarinet player. What factors create the resonance I speak of, and what can I do increase it?
Just for reference, my setup is as follows:
Buffet R-13 (Bb of course)
Selmer C*
Vandoren Optimum
V56 3.5 Reeds
I'm looking to upgrade to a much higher quality mouthpiece at some point, so if equipment is a factor in this I'll gladly consider it.
Thanks in advance,
Ryan K
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-12 23:22
Are you comparing your sound to what you've heard played on a recording or played at a live performance?
And are you noticing this while you're playing at home with all manner of sound absorbant items in the same room (carpet, furniture, curtains, etc.), or in a large hall with a certain amount of echo?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2007-11-12 23:36
I'm comparing it to things I've heard live and in recordings. I had an experience yesterday that triggered me really questioning my sound. I was playing at a community band rehearsal, and the more experienced adult next to me played some warm ups, and his sound was just more....alive. Mine was dead. I can't figure out why.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-11-13 00:11
Things that help are
- new reed
- playing in the bathroom
Next thing to check - it's November, and many people get the usual winter ailments such as clogged ears or common colds. Both influence the perception of own and other people's playing.
Then - maybe it just wasn't your day. Or your week, maybe. What's your mind occupied with while you're playing? You okay?
If you can, just for fun, switch clarinets. Grab your old Bundy or Vito. See or rather hear how you're doing with that one.
(And in case you're questioning my sincerity - I'm dead serious. Or at least dying serious)
--
Ben
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2007-11-13 00:18
I'll try the old clarinet idea, and I do practice in a dead room, I'll try the bathroom idea. But the new reed and november off thing can't be it. I'm really on in my playing right now, to the point where it hasn't been better...maybe ever, and the reed was great. I'm looking to step it up to the next level. I've been toying around with a Double Lip Embouchure, would that help?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-13 00:31
Quote:
But the new reed and november off thing can't be it. I'm really on in my playing right now, to the point where it hasn't been better...maybe ever, and the reed was great. I sometimes think that way too. "Can't be the reed. It's great." It may be perfectly balanced, really easy to play on, but it still could very well be just an old reed. I always find such a "surprise" when I open a new box and realize how great and resonant I sound on new reeds. Still can't hit the right notes at the right times, but the mistakes I make are very full and resonant!!!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-11-13 00:52
Do you focus the sound by keeping the tongue high where you wisdom teeth are? (or in other words, do you play thinking "eeeeeee"?)
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: srattle
Date: 2007-11-13 09:21
I believe that resonance comes mainly from the mouth cavity, and how you use your air. You have to make a resonance chamber in your head, and eventually lower down as well in order to make your sound resonate.
While practicing, without changing how you hold the reed/mouthpiece in your mouth to much, try opening up the mouth, and relaxing the throat (make sure that you don't drop your tongue though)
Working with that should help with the overtones, and resonance.
goodluck
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2007-11-13 09:36
How does the person next to you (who you admired the tone of) think you sound?
When you listen to yourself play, you are at the wrong end of the instrument for air conduction hearing, and you have all the bone conduction hearing coming in that an audience (such as yourself listening to somebody else) doesn't have.
Before you beat yourself with a stick, or your credit card with a new mouthpiece, it might be worth checking out what others think.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-11-13 11:02
AIR
The key is AIR
If you focus your air column, saying EEEEEEE (NOT "Ah") and push as steady, narrow and swift a column of air through your horn as you can, you will begin to achieve a large, resonant sound.
Keep in mind the diaphragm only brings air into the lungs, it doesn't push it out. For that you need to engage the intercostals (muscles between your ribs) as well as the lower abdominals. The feeling will be akin to the sort of "push" one exerts when trying to ..........unconstipate one's self.........
Can't really describe it better - sorry.
AIR, it is all AIR!!!!
.........Paul Aviles
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-11-13 11:17
Concurring completely with Paul...
By supporting the air as Paul describes (which pressurizes the air leaving the lungs) and thinking "eeeee" (which creates a smaller aperture in the mouth which FURTHER pressurizes the air) your air stream leaves the body with the highest velocity, exiting the reed to great degree, and creating an overtone rich (resonant) sound.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2007-11-13 14:34
I'll use more air. I'll try exchanging the reed. About the mouth position. I know the toung should be in an "wheeeee" position, for purpose of air colum, but what should the back of the tounge and the throat be? Relaxed I assume?
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-11-13 16:12
Resonance is very difficult to achieve. Most of us rely on the acoustics of the performance/rehearsal room to supply appropriate reverberation. If you are recording, it can be supplied synthetically. That being said, there are players who can fill the room, any room. Steve Girko can; I have heard him do it. It's incredable. Some can, most can not.
richard smith
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-11-13 16:19
How you hear yourself is different from how you hear someone else. I wonder if you have a sinus or ear canal problem.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2007-11-13 19:47
Ok. As opposed to making another topic, I'll just change the subject. I'm unhappy with my current mouthpiece. Really unhappy for a number of reasons.(It's been through marching band 4 times now, it doesn't play so hot) Regardless, what mouthpiece setup, reed combination, etc would help me to sound like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrViboXXb1I
I realize this is hard without hearing me play, but any advice would be appreciated. I like how it resonates, and I like how its at the same time dark and playful.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-13 20:08
There's a whole WORLD of mouthpieces out there. woodwind and brasswind alone usually lists over 100 different make/models, and out of the 30+ mouthpieces I've tried over my last few years (I love to try out new mouthpieces...it's passed the 'hobby' line and crossed into 'addiction' territory), the majority of them weren't even from mass makers and were rather from places that handfinish or hand produce the mouthpieces from blanks.
It wouldn't do anyone any justice for us to recommend mouthpieces. If you feel comfortable with the way your mouthpiece feels but not how it sounds, we might be able to point you in the direction of mouthpieces that have a similar structure, but chances are there's probably just under fifty that would 'pop' into people's heads.
I'd do some searches on this board based on what mouthpiece you're playing, or maybe what style of music you're debating, or just in general. Just to give you an idea of the mouthpiece diversity from people on this board . . . http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=59373&t=59342. It's an entire thread with (I believe) more than 100 responses on what people's "setups" are. Mouthpiece, reed, ligature, clarinet. And most of those people are probably very happy with those setups (look at the diversity!) and some (like myself) have changed aspects of their setup, even though they may have been happy at the time, may just have found something either better, or just different enough to stick with it cause it was time for a change.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2007-11-13 20:22
Thanks for all the great responses. One final question. What websites offer good try before you buy policies on mouthpieces. I know WWBW has it, but anyone else?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-11-13 20:26
Custom makers often will offer a try before you buy. Check their websites. Some other websites MIGHT offer a try before you buy (I can't remember but I think junkdude.com does, but does NOT on ralph morgan mouthpieces), if in doubt, when you find a mouthpiece, ask the seller. Sometimes ebay sellers have offerred me a try before you buy (generally on more expensive stuff like a clarinet) provided if I don't like it, I pay ebay posting costs and shipping.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-11-14 02:02
Is the observation of your sound from a practice room?
These are designed to contain sound in a small space.
Resonance is difficult to achieve when reverberation is suppressed.
For a fair comparison, take someone who has a sound you admire into a brick walled corner in with a high ceiling (or open courtyard) and play a few passages together. You may be pleasantly surprised about the quality of your own sound...
I can recall a session listening to Anthony Gigliotti prepare before a concert at the Garden State pavillion - harsh, grinding and bright up close.
Out in the hall - pure silk and fine phrasing out in the cheap seats...
Being able to play differently for each setting is some measure of genius.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-11-14 02:59
There is something about this topic that is bothering me a little bit:
Although they are obviously interrelated, reverbation and resonance are not the same thing. I have looked up both in several dictionaries and they are woefully similar according to the people who determine what words mean.
In the context of the initial question by Ryan K, resonance is a quality inherent to the sound of the clarinet/individual. An indiviual with a resonant voice (or clarinet sound) SOUNDS resonant regardless of the room, although a given room might amplify or minimize this resonance to some degree. Resonance is not a have/have not quality! You can learn to play with a resonant sound WITHOUT changing equiptment.
Reverberation is how "wet" or "dry" any given room is. This can modify, but not completely change, inherent qualities of sound.
I do not agree that resonance is difficult to achieve in a dry room. I'm certain that James Earl Jones sounds resonant in a closet.
As to the anecdote of Gigliotti: I have never met him, nor heard him play in the situation described. I would bet, however, that he wasn't playing any differently.
I may be wrong, (and I invite debate!) but I doubt greatly Gigliotti was playing with one sound in one room, and then changing for the concert hall. Doesn't that clearly go against the preparation techniques that we all know? (I'm going to sound brashy in my prep, but I'll conveniently change to sonorous when MOST people are listening).
An overtone rich sound production is needed to project through the orchestra! What may sound bright and harsh within fifteen feet sounds wonderful fifty feet later.
Ryan K: The "back" of the tongue is something that we could talk about for a while without coming to consensus. Let's say that the tongue should be high enough to touch (constantly) where you're wisdom teeth/molars are (or were!).
The soft palate (or back of throat) should be up, lifted, as if yawning.
If a store or mouthpiece craftsman does not allow a trial, do not do business with them.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2007-11-14 16:46
Isn't this something better handled by a teacher?
Even though I'm sure the advice is sound, there are so many reasons why things may not be working for you.
You need professional, in-person advice.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-11-14 23:06
I will describe how I and many others experienced it in this way: At a TBA workshop Lurie had 6 students perform in turn. The room was a conference room, not a performance hall. He did not know the students and had not met them until we all got together. The sounds of the first five were what everyone expected, but when number six played, Lurie became estatic. The tone filled the room in a way that brings to mind volume, resonance, or.... Volume is Olson's word for it I believe. It is a complicated subjective term. See his book Musical Engineering. Hope this helps.
richard smith
Post Edited (2007-11-15 14:32)
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-11-15 12:45
I kinda know what you mean. I'm not sure how to do it consistently. Support, certainly: blow from way down inside, not with your lips. Easy to forget when you're tired. That, combined with the right mpc/reed /for you/.
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Author: chumbucket804
Date: 2007-11-15 13:06
Try to keep your chest area (your sternum) open and full. When I feel I am lacking I like to play a low E with as big and open of a sound as I can. Also, my teacher gave me an empty toilet paper roll to breathe through. I fit my mouth around it and take two-three breaths in and out. I find it really helps me a lot.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-11-15 15:16
Quote:
What websites offer good try before you buy policies on mouthpieces. I know WWBW has it, but anyone else?
muncywinds.com is a great place to deal with. In my experiences, they have great stock, are knowledgeable and friendly and are top notch in all respects.
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