 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jura
Date: 2007-11-07 18:40
Greetings to all. At me a question. I very much like my sound when I try to play double lips how I can quickly change the Embouchure what so to play always double lips?
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Author: Taryn
Date: 2007-11-07 19:02
I just started changing over to double lip myself. But I eased in to it a bit, to build up my muscles, by playing my long tones this way, then my scale/thirds, ect...just adding a bit of my routine to it at a time, until it's completely natural
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2007-11-07 20:09
Tom Ridenour has an excellent discussion on the clarinet embouchure, including the practical use of the double lip approach on his website. See
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/role.htm
His book "The Educators Guide to the Clarinet" has a more detailed description of these concepts.
I have found it particularly helpful as a tool for remedies for various single lip problems, ie, biting, intonation issues, legato, etc.
AB
AB
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-11-07 20:54
I would say, as was stated on this forum before, that the double lip emouchure will also force a correct use of all the muscles surounding the mouthpiece.
I would suggest using a softer reed than you presently use and work a bit (say for a week or so) before really going for the notes beyond the clarion register.
Many very fine players had stated that they wished they could have developed double lip capabilities earlier in their careers. For those who have played many years without it, the pressure on the upper lip and the lessening of stability of the horn in your hands will be the hurdles to overcome.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-11-07 21:22
Playing mainly on bass and alto cls, I use both, alternatingly, depending upon chalameau-clarion-altissimo[seldom] parts and volume requirements, is this ?wrong? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2007-11-07 21:28
"Many very fine players had stated that they wished they could have developed double lip capabilities earlier in their careers. For those who have played many years without it, the pressure on the upper lip and the lessening of stability of the horn in your hands will be the hurdles to overcome."
I wish I could do it. I mess around with it now and then but have never made much progress with it. A colleague of mine can swith back and forth in any situation and really gets great results. I have a very short upper lip and can barely get my top lip over the teeth. I still continue to mess with it but I don't know if I will ever be able to do it in a concert.
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2007-11-07 21:42
I have considered experimenting with it again for some time now, this may well be the thread to kick start some practise.
I started on a double lip embouchure...my first teacher didn't notice and I played quite happily like that for 5 or 6 years. My first 'serious' teacher took me off it, the reason given was to help with my tonguing. It was a relatively easy switch to single lip, I wonder if I'll find it so easy to go back the other way!
I think having both up your sleeve can only be a good thing.
Post Edited (2007-11-07 21:43)
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-11-08 03:00
I have been making the change to double lip, and I would say that I've had great success.
Caveat: I still am not able to practice for an hour straight. Or I can, but I have to switch back to single lip...but this is a much improved single lip.
I used to have to wear a guard over my lower tip, and since changing I have never had to do that again. In long rehearsals, I do switch back and forth form single to double.
I've never had to switch to lower reed strengths. I DO balance every reed, it makes a huge difference. My sound, already focused and full, has more resonance. Staccato has more fullness or "meat" in the sound, and articulation itself is faster for me.
I also highly reccommend getting Tom Ridenour's text as suggested above. It has very clear explanations of how the double lip works and how to change over.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2007-11-08 04:43
Interesting that you were told to play single lip for the sake of tonguing, Danny Boy--I find that I tongue infinitely better playing double lip.
Also, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's usually more difficult to switch from single to double than go in the other direction. Maybe I'll be wrong in your case, though--stranger things have happened...
Tom
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Author: jura
Date: 2007-11-08 10:15
Who from присутвующих has changed a mouth for double lips, there is such experience? What successes?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-11-08 12:00
Dear Jura,
If you are indeed from Germany or the German school of playing, there may not really be a double lip alternative. What information I have available through players such as Karl Leister, the Teutonic school of thought applies more gusto in general to the whole embouchure thing. This includes gluing a leather patch to the top of the mouthpiece to provide necessary cushion for the upper teeth. From what I remember, Leister pretty much summarily dismisses the upper lip technique. Although I would add that ALL great clarinet players use a great deal of upper lip musculature to enhance tone and pitch.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-11-08 20:00
I've had great results with switching to a double lip embouchure. One thing that helps, I think, is resting the clarinet bell on the right knee. This might not work for everyone....depending upon one's height. For me, this fixes the problem of stability.
Roger
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2007-11-09 18:58
Ryan 25 said:
"I wish I could do it. I mess around with it now and then but have never made much progress with it. A colleague of mine can swith back and forth in any situation and really gets great results. I have a very short upper lip and can barely get my top lip over the teeth. I still continue to mess with it but I don't know if I will ever be able to do it in a concert."
Ryan, if your upper lip is really short, such that your upper front teeth are prominently visible when your mouth and lips are relaxed, then you cannot effectively play with a classic double lip embouchure, wherein some or all of the red part of the upper lip is curled under the tips of the upper front teeth.
You can however achieve similar results by developing an embouchure in which the upper lip is placed directly in front of and against the upper front teeth, rather than being curled under as in classic double lip. The slight pressure on the top of the mouthpiece comes entirely from the upper lip. The upper teeth merely rest on the mouthpiece, but do not press down on it. Many prominent players use this embouchure and teach it to their students, although most of them consider it a single lip rather than a double lip embouchure.
If you are a typical single lip clarinet player, you are accustomed to using considerable pressure on the mouthpiece and reed from your upper teeth and lower jaw, whereas the typical double lip embouchure and the variant I mention above use far less pressure from the lips only.
An effective double lip embouchure requires development of those facial muscles which permit control of both upper and lower lips, plus fine tuning of the airstream. This process requires diligent practice over a significant period of time, which is probably why most players who experiment choose to return to the conventional single lip embouchure.
Avoid listening to those single lip players, however well intentioned they may be, who will offer you detailed advice on double lip, but who cannot play double lip successfully.
You refer to a colleague who can switch back and forth (I assume only from single to double lip) and gets great results. After you have studied the advice from Ridenour and other knowledgeable double lip players, try to sit down with that colleague for some one on one coaching. Much of what I have mentioned above requires competent coaching, and cannot be communicated effectively via the written word.
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2007-11-09 21:39
John said:
"You can however achieve similar results by developing an embouchure in which the upper lip is placed directly in front of and against the upper front teeth, rather than being curled under as in classic double lip. The slight pressure on the top of the mouthpiece comes entirely from the upper lip. The upper teeth merely rest on the mouthpiece, but do not press down on it. Many prominent players use this embouchure and teach it to their students, although most of them consider it a single lip rather than a double lip embouchure."
I'm well aware and have been well schooled in how to utilize the top lip in an effective manner. Thanks.
The real reason I can't do it is because my lip just does not make it over my top teeth with enough flesh to make it possible. I try on occasion to work on it simply to promote good habits in my normal embouchure but physicaly, I will never be able to do it with out plastic surgery.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-10 01:03
I am not sure if this has been addressed- is there anything that you can do better with double than single and visa versa?
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Author: haberc
Date: 2007-11-10 13:40
For's what it's worth, I have always played clarinet double lip and saxophone single lip. They both feel totally natural to me. There is a fullness of tone I get with double lip on clarinet I just can't get playing single lip. And on sax single lip seems 'right' for me because I can be much more flexible.
But it took me a long time before I could sustain double lip without needing to rest my chops.
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Author: Aequore
Date: 2007-11-10 18:59
Doesnt Single Lip offer more support on all registers and stability compared to double??..
Im also one of those who use both ''single'' and ''double'' and mostly use the single lip just because of the comfort and ease of playing.
Pete
-Juilliard
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2007-11-11 16:21
I use both double and single every day and can switch back and forth with no problem. I started using double on long tones during my warm-up to help free up the sound. I then tried to maintain the double lip feeling when playing single lip. Double is great for the low register and throat tones and for playing softly. It can bring down the pitch of sharp notes. Single works better for the altissimo register and to play loud.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2007-11-12 14:27
The sound one makes on the clarinet is in one's head. In other words, we sound how we sound based on our unique conception of a good clarinet sound, irrespective of whether we play with a double- or a single-lip embouchure. What the embouchure does do, however, is alter slightly how we hear our own sound. The upper-teeth-to-mouthpiece feedback is different, I find, than the upper-lip-to-mouthpiece feedback. The latter might also be a bit closer to what the listener is hearing, although I have no scientific way of validating that statement. Bottom line: there are too many great players in both camps to say which embouchure is "better."
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2007-11-13 01:38
Depending upon your upper lip and its actual length, double lip affords (with time) better legato, better articulation of all kinds,prevents biting, finger-banging and many other bad habits . It is both the best embouchure and if you are having difficulty playing single lip, affords the best correctional therapy. As has been stated, one will have more success with a less resistant reed, and will probably end up with a so-called medium reed to afford the most flexibility. Initially playing high C and/or thumb f will require some time as there is no other support, however the results are simply worth the extra effort, if in fact there is any. Think Harold Wright and /or Gino Cioffi. Both eventually wound up as Principal of the Boston Symphony, and both played double lip.
With those as mentors, the embouchure deserves (at least) consideration by every clarinetist.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-13 03:35
I asked this in another thread, but got no answer.
I have sharp upper and lower teeth, would there be any use in doing double lip with paper over the top teeth also?? Or does this just defeat the purpose of it all???
And for those that do double lip- can you still play high?? I mean up to and past the second high C?? Do you have to employ the top teeth for the really high notes??
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-11-13 11:28
Skygardener,
I have posted to almost every double lip thread recently because of the success I am enjoying with the change:
I used to think that I had "sharp little teeth". I USED to have to use a teeth/lip guard as you describe. It was, in reality, just the fact that I was subconciously exerting TOO MUCH pressure with my jaw to control the reed's performance.
Yes, I can still play high. S. Friedland accurately relates that thumb (chalumeau) F and clarion C are the two hardest notes to play because your thumb is pushing the instrument UP into the lip that is trying to develop the strength to hold the mouthpiece and stabilize the instrument (those two notes really hurt in the beginning!).
I can still play C7 whenever I want to.
Also, when I return to single lip for endurance reasons I DO NOT BITE...again requiring no teeth guard.
I (personally) never went down in reed strength in switching, but wouldn't counsel against it.
The thing that I have not seen explained is the inward pressure generated by the thumb and hands that allows the double lip to work so well and which, for me, is so fundamentally different from the single lip that I was taught (and had to change!).
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: jura
Date: 2007-11-14 11:13
Skygardener,when You play double lips a corner, it is less than when yuo play single? (bell of a clarnet is down?)
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Author: jura
Date: 2007-11-14 12:53
Who else from famoust clarnetists uses duoble lips?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-14 13:00
I think your question is, 'When you play double lip do you hold the clarinet at a different angle?'
My answer- I don't play double lip. I am trying it since yesterday because of this thread. I have the same question for those that do double lip- do you need a different angle than with single?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-11-14 14:16
Not really. I have not noticed a major change in this area.
I do feel that what "seemed" to be a change in the angle of the mouthpiece INSIDE my mouth was not a significant change at all. I was just reorienting to the new habit.
Now you may discover that the embouchure change does necessitate a change in angle. If so, set the embouchure, play an open G, and slowly move the clarinet away from and then back to your body and determine where the sound is the best. You're searching for the "sweet spot".
James
Gnothi Seauton
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