 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-10-23 13:21
i need an A clarinet and thinking about buying a lyrique A. (and are probably going for a set because i need a Bb that does not crack)
is this a good buy? any downsides?
is a old Buffet RC thats overhauled by a good tech better if the price is about the same?
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Author: Anon
Date: 2007-10-23 13:58
I have a set that I used primarily for outdoors and teaching for long periods when I know the instrument will be played, then sit, played then sit, etc.
I like mine a lot - particularly the feel of the ergonomic register key. The sound is pretty good but maybe a little less "vibrant" than wood (at least to my ears)
You'll want to have it adjusted to your liking right away - I found the key height and tension to be inconsistent. Some of the tuning is a little off - I've just figured out how to adjust to make it right.
For the money, I think it's a good deal although I won't make them my primary instruments.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-10-23 15:49
The Lyrique and Arioso clarinets are giant killers.
You may find that it is more than a backup instrument.
My Arioso has the most even resistance pattern of any clarinet I've owned.
I shudder to think what my Opus pair cost, given the value of these...
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-10-23 16:35
Davidblumberg wrote:
"What about the Buffet Greenline? It won't crack."
I've seen them cracking.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-23 17:41
The "cracks" that are commonly encountered in wood clarinets tend to be more or less longitudinal...inline with the axis or grain of the horn. Molded clarinets...plastic, hard rubber etc....usually crack differently.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-10-23 19:16
The Lyrique clarinet is an excellent non-wood choice for anyone. The Lyrique is a bit improved over the Arioso and is still under Tom's personal supervision. You will get the personal attention that you want and I don't think you'll be disappointed at all in the quality of the instrument. It plays very well in tune and sounds much like my wooden Buffets. You'll save $$ over the price of a greenline, although I also like the greenlines very much.
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-24 00:32
To Dave Blumberg,
OOOooo...I'd love to go to a ClarFest sometime!!!
When & where are they?
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-10-24 00:54
I own a set of Lyrique's, and like them a lot. I agree it is the most "even" clarinet I've ever owned. I like the Bb a lot, but the A is even better. I've heard that from others as well. Try the A - Tom offers a trial. Make sure you get one right from Tom's website, and not on ebay or some other place. Having the clarinet finished and set-up by Tom is a huge benefit.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2007-10-24 00:55
I am VERY pleased with my Lyrique A and C. Both are very strong instruments. I use the A several times a week. I use the C occasionaly, maybe twice a week and have received positive comments from string players. Other C clarinet players were not too hip on the smooth sound until they pulled their C clarinets out and realized that it sounds much better in tune than their Buffets, Amatis, etc. I have only had the opportunity to try one Lyrique Bb, and it was very nice, but a bit too "polite" sounding compared to my normal fare. It was a great instrument (the Lyrique Bb), and if there was any chance that I could sell my favorite Bb for what I would have to pay for a Lyrique, I would have made the switch.
I think that if Tom decided to make an Eb and D, I would sell my Eb and Bb in an instant and go with all Ridenour equipment all the way from Eb, D, C, Bb, A to bass. Ok, maybe not bass. I've tried the bass, and it is just a bit short of a Selmer. I have hope, though!
He is that good.
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2007-10-24 00:58
Iceland clarinet, can you elaborate on the "I've seen them crack"? Do you mean after someone sat on it (I would imagine that would crack most clarinets) or do you mean you saw one crack from normal playing?
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2007-10-24 01:47
I'd like to echo the compliments about the A Lyrique. I own one and enjoy it very much. Add to that Tom's willingness to service it personally and it's a bargain that cannot be beat.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-10-24 08:46
FrankM I saw it crack from normal playing ownd by a professional player playing in Symphony orchestra.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-10-24 16:10
well. it seams like i'm getting myselft a new set of clarinets!! :D
ordering the A the first thing when i get money!(in a day or two)
about greenlines: i have had one Bb r13, and i didn't really like it. but i think it was that perticular one and not the greenline itself. a very hard clarinet to play through!!
and i have seen greenlines go in to peices!!! when using them in the army militaryband or other outdoor paradebands (where its cold) they have a tendency to break right of in the tenons.
god, im really excited about this now!! :D
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-27 16:02
Pelo,
Let us know what you think when you get them!
I may invest in a Lyyric Custom Bb for outdoor playing myself someday.
Yes...it's terribly exciting when getting a new instrument!
Best of luck.
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Author: awm34
Date: 2007-10-27 18:34
Just received my Lyrique A yesterday (Friday) n the late afternoon and I'm in love. In fact I already prefer its feel to my Selmer 10G.
I'll be curious to see how my (accomplished) teacher responds on Monday.
Alan Messer
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Author: awm34
Date: 2007-10-29 21:50
Teacher's response to my new Lyrique A: responsive, even, smooth action but not as warm as her R-13.
Alan Messer
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-10-29 23:00
I love the Ridenour Lyrique I own. When it arrives (I had to mail it to myself while I was coming back to America), I'll compare it against my Leblanc Opus. Both are top-notch instruments, both custom tuned (Lyrique by Mr. Ridenour, Opus by Morrie Backun). I know right off the bat that the Lyrique is much more freeblowing than my opus (I noticed that as soon as I played it), but both are very even and very well in tune. I just wonder which one I'll end up liking more . . . . I'll definitely post my findings after I playtest them side by side (for a time-frame, I'll get it back and plan on a post around christmas time)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-12-07 20:45
now i have had my new lyrique for a couple of days and here is what i think of it so far:
***bad***
everything but the craftmanship is CHEAP!
the case was a bit broken when it came. the "wall" between the bell and lower part was pushed together to fit the parts in the bag and the bell is way to big to fit without doing that (and its not the bag on the pictures, looks the same on the outside but the clarinets lies the other way, which leave a much smaller space for other stuff) WHY on earth are he using this crapcases? the zipper seams like it will crack any time...
also the case pushes against the keys, and im a little afraid that if i put anything in the pocket on the outside, it may cause harm to the keys.
it wasn't properly cleaned after the tweaking. found small pieces of cork under some of the rings.
when playing F (xxx xoo) that ringsection is making vibrations against the toneholes when just laying down the fingers very lightly. one have to press just a bit more and it goes away. not good. causing more tension on the fingers...
the long C and B is sounding a bit fuzzy. just a bit, so i dont want to send it all the way back over the atlantic just to let him fix it...
why is he using nickelplated keywork btw? the stupidest thing i have ever seen. could it be that hard to use a silver one that is maybe just a tiny bit better?(and maybe $100 more, but what the f***, the horn will last many more years! its well worth it!) it would change the overall feeling of cheapness into a good, expensive, robust, long lasting keywork. as any other clarinet!!
***good***
the craftmanship!!!
this clarinet intonates VERY good. no need for emboushyre changes in any register. it plays well in tune from ppp to fff. (and i are thinking what a piece of junk im having for Bb clarinet...)
the reg. key!! why isn't this a standard on every clarinet? its just soooo comfortable having it comming down on the right side of the f-hole like on saxophones, making the LH much more relaxed and in a more natural possition.
the sound! or ability to form the sound you want. it is extreamly flexible. both chambermusic, orchestral and soloplay. it can handle it all without any struggle.
this tuesday i played the mozart clarinetquintett and got very nice comments on the sound and good intonation.
and mr Ridenour is right, its no tonal difference on this hardrubber-clarinet than a wooden one. heck, it sounds better that any clarinet i have ever tried!! hardrubber rocks!!!
***summarize***
this is a wonderful instrument to play!!!! BUT:
it seems wrong to me that he is prioritize the price so much that he neglect these things that separates this "poor-student" horn from something that can be one of the best horns in the world!!!
in my oppinion he is wasting hes time doing these horns when he could make a horn that feels and work like a professional clarinet for what, $100-200 more maybe??? and there is no buyer that will complain about the price if he raised it just so little!!!
i will buy the Bb custom as well when i get the money!!
its well worth it despite all its shortcomings!!!
Post Edited (2007-12-07 20:55)
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-12-07 20:52
btw. anyone else having this fuzzy sound in the long c and b's???
what to do about it? it sounds like the register vent. but im not shure.
one can hear it through a large room. its not a huge sound. just noticable. but still. it annoyes me!
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-12-08 00:03
i emailed the above review to mr ridenour and has his aproval of sharing his reply here on the bboard. it took him less than 2 hours to answer. and he has a great answer for practicly everything. i feel proud to own his instrument!
here are the letter(his writing is between the <<<'s instead of the "blue" text on this very grey and black site:)
<<<Dear Niclas,
Thank you for your thoughtful review of my clarinet and the opportunity to respond. Please feel free to post my response as you feel appropriate. I have put my responses in blue for ease of seeing.<<<
You wrote:
everything but the craftmanship is CHEAP! the case was a bit broken when it came. the "wall" between the bell and lower part was pushed together to fit the parts in the bag and the bell is way to big to fit without doing that (and its not the bag on the pictures, looks the same on the outside but the clarinets lies the other way, which leave a much smaller space for other stuff) WHY on earth are he using this crapcases? the zipper seams like it will crack any time...
<<<First, I don’t have total control of every thing the factory does in regard to clarinet production––I request and wait. These A clarinets were shipped to me in double cases that had different cradle designs than those I had received in the past (the one I photographed for the web site). Besides the cradle design, everything else was the same about the case in terms of materials, etc––the discrepancy between what you received and the photo on the web site was not deceptive in any way. Personally, I like the older cradles better, but the factory makes changes like this without asking my advice and I have to take what they send––and complain later. We have been selling this style of casefor our “A” clarinets for four years, and no one has complained about the quality of the case. I can’t recall a single customer who has said the zipper has failed. If you want the zipper to work more smoothly then rub a bar of soap or wax on the teeth of the zipper. I, personally, don’t see why they changed the cradle; the other was more practical and the pieces fit better. I do plan to write them about this in regard to future orders. The clarinets do fit firmly in the case, and this is a good thing. Remember the case is new. Once the foam cradle adjusts from repeated us the fit will be just right, instead of loose, like the fit in many of my old cases. Most players like the case because it is both very durable and very light––unlike my old Buffet and Leblanc double cases from years ago, that were bulky and weighed a ton, or the Buffet pochette case, that was easier to carry and lighter but had no room for anything but the clarinets. You say the case is cheap, but no one has complained about its durability and it’s adequateness at protecting the clarinet––you are the first to call it "cheap". My experience with customers and using it myself for several years indicates to me it is both durable and excellent at protecting the clarinet..<<<
also the case pushes against the keys, and im a little afraid that if i put anything in the pocket on the outside, it may cause harm to the keys.
<<<I don’t think that is something to worry about; what goes in the outside pocket has little change on the inside. My customers complain about everything that goes wrong and no one has brought this issue up in all the time we’ve used the case, so I am inclined to think your fears are unfounded.<<<
it wasn't properly cleaned after the tweaking. found small pieces of cork under some of the rings.
when playing F (xxx xoo) that ringsection is making vibrations against the toneholes when just laying down the fingers very lightly. one have to press just a bit more and it goes away. not good. causing more tension on the fingers...
<<<This problem you’re having is due to how you’ve aligned the bridge keys. Where you have them placed, radially, makes the upper joint pad strike slightly earlier than the lower joint pad. If you rotate the upper joint counterclockwise slightly (as you look down the clarinet from the top) the upper pad will close later and the lower joint pad will close securely without having to squeeze. The rotation does not have to be much to correct the issue you are experiencing. The clarinet bridgework is 18th century technology and a different design ought to become standard. I’ve thought about this for years, but have not come up with a solution that will cause the one and one Bb to automatically adjust without a little care from the player about radial alignment of the joints. I do have one solution, but it is not practical to manufacture along with other problems.<<<
the long C and B is sounding a bit fuzzy. just a bit, so i dont want to send it all the way back over the atlantic just to let him fix it...
<<<This is usually due to the register key being too close and/or playing unbalanced reeds. Venting the register key slightly could completely clear up the lack of clarity you are experiencing. Different players get different degrees of clarity out of the same pitches on the same clarinet. Register key venting ought to be limited. Too much venting can cause increased instances of undertoning or “grunting” in the upper clarion tones.<<<
why is he using nickelplated keywork btw? the stupidest thing i have ever seen. could it be that hard to use a silver one that is maybe just a tiny bit better?(and maybe $100 more, but what the f***, the horn will last many more years! its well worth it!) it would change the overall feeling of cheapness into a good, expensive, robust, long lasting keywork. as any other clarinet!!
<<<As I said, I don’t have complete control of everything that goes on in the factory––I only have so much leverage. I have requested silver plating for several years, but the quality is not good enough yet. I look forward to the day I can offer silver plating. I will say this: our nickel plating is very good and doesn’t peal and crack like many other models of clarinet because the traditional pickles are used for plating. Using such pickles in the U.S. and Europe has become more and more of the problems due to increased environmental restrictions. Finally, I'll say I am aware Europeans make a big deal about plating, but until the late 80s almost all the Buffet R-13s that were sent into the US were nickel plated, and the vast majority are still nickel. There are many professionals out there playing nickel plated R-13s in top organizations, because when they tested clarinets, the nickel plated one played best. The real truth is silver plating costs the factories very little more to produce, but they are able to soak player for even more by doing it. I don't have silver plating because I can't get the factory to produce it for me, even though I'd be happy to pay more for it. I hope that might change in the future, but even if it did, it wouldn't make the horn play one bit better––but it would satisfy certain people's desire for a certain cosmetic look.<<<
***good***
the craftmanship!!!
this clarinet intonates VERY good. no need for emboushyre changes in any register. it plays well in tune from ppp to fff. (and i are thinking what a piece of junk im having for Bb clarinet...)
the reg. key!! why isn't this a standard on every clarinet? its just soooo comfortable having it comming down on the right side of the f-hole like on saxophones, making the LH much more relaxed and in a more natural possition.
the sound! or ability to form the sound you want. it is extreamly flexible. both chambermusic, orchestral and soloplay. it can handle it all without any struggle.
this tuesday i played the mozart clarinetquintett and got very nice comments on the sound and good intonation.
and mr Ridenour is right, its no tonal difference on this hardrubber-clarinet than a wooden one. heck, it sounds better that any clarinet i have ever tried!! hardrubber rocks!!!
***summarize***
this is a wonderful instrument to play!!!! BUT:
it seems wrong to me that he is prioritize the price so much that he neglect these things that separates this "poor-student" horn from something that can be one of the best horns in the world!!!
in my oppinion he is wasting hes time doing these horns when he could make a horn that feels and work like a professional clarinet for what, $100-200 more maybe??? and there is no buyer that will complain about the price if he raised it just so little!!!
i will buy the Bb custom as well when i get the money!!
its well worth it despite all its shortcomings!!!
<<<My response to your summary is as follows: First of all, hard rubber DOES rock! I don’t even like the sound or response of wood clarinets any more. Now, I see your points in the summary, and I’m working towards solutions even as I’m writing you, but the factory has many priorities and what I ask for takes last place time after time. Note, it took me four years to get the lower joint for the basset A clarinet––but it works great now that it’s here. So I am a patient man when I have to be, and in dealing with the factory I often have to be very patient––but things do get done.
With that in mind consider the following:
I believe my clarinets sound, play and tune as well if not better than any French-style Bb and A clarinets in the world––at a fraction of the price of the top wood models. Think: Professional clarinet players in the US pay the high price for professional clarinets, AND take the clarinets to an artist repair tech and have them completely go over the clarinet, put in custom pads, regulate and adjust it, and this customizing, which does not include acoustical issues, costs them from $400.00 to $1000.00. Their total investment on a clarinet they paid $2200.00 for can easily run over three thousand dollars or more––and still the acoustical issues aren’t addressed as they should be! Beyond that, because of acoustical design problems the player is always trying to "fix" them with other things, like mouthpieces, barrels and bells and he spends a ton of money on them in the hope they can fix what is really "broken" in the design of the left and right hand acoustical design. The solution never totally solves the problem, because the real issue is not with the mouthpiece, bell or barrel––or the ligatures or reeds or a half dozen other things they can spend money on––the real issue is with the acoustical design that is set and unfixable. The only thing changing mouthpieces, barrels, bells, etc. can do is lessen the bad effects and partially cover them up. But they will never be totally eliminated. What is needed is a clarinet that has stable materials and good acoustical design. Then people aren't so crazy with spending money on mad mouthpiece searches, etc. Finally, there's one other negative issue with wood, even when it doesn't crack: durability. Harold Wright, the former late, great principal clarinetist in Boston said in an interview that he changed clarinets about every ten years, because they got blown out. You can hear that interview at
http://www.wgbh.org/article?item_id=1840844
The place where he mentions wood clarinet durability is about three minutes into the interview. When I was going to Yale Robert Bloom, the oboe teacher there and Tosacanni's oboist, told me the very same thing about oboes, only life span was about six or several years. In contrast, hard rubber clarinets will play for decades without loss of quality or acoustical change. Even if they didn't, they're less expensive and more consistent, so it's easier to find another good one if you decide to change. There are many other issues in addition, but this should suffice for starters.
Now think about the extra money people spend with these and other issues on a clarinet made of materials that have only a short span of optimum performance time and consider: My clarinets come with professional, synthetic pads in the upper joint, pads that seal as well as cork but are as quite as skin pads and last three or four times longer than either skin or cork. The clarinet is carefully hand tuned and the acoustics are right––that is what you buy the clarinet for after all––not for the case or key plating. My clarinets will never crack, the bore dimensions don't change, and the acoustics remain stable throughout the year….all for a fraction of what wood clarinet manufacturers charge, and what clarinets among them are as carefully hand tuned by the actual designer?
Add the case of your choice, have the clarinet keys silver-plated if you want, and you’re still WAY under the cost of anything else on the market. If you want to invest in upgrading plating and cosmetics, you can at your own expense, while others still have access to something acoustically superior that they can well afford.
Recently a professional clarinetist from Cincinnati ordered one of my bass clarinets for trial. She wrote me that she loved the way it tuned, sounded and played, but that she really needed certain keys adjusted in different places to fit her hand, so she was going to return it. I reasoned with her this way: This clarinet gives you top quality performance at about 1/3 the cost of a feature comparable wood clarinet––and it won’t crack on you (and break your heart). For a few hundred dollars you can get you local tech to make the key adjustments you need to suit you, have a great clarinet that you can use for a lifetime, and still be several thousand dollars ahead of the game. She thought about it and bought my bass.
Sanity prevailed because she decided to think rationally instead of emotionally: here's a guy who is offering me a clarinet that plays, sounds and tunes as well if not better than clarinets costing thousands of dollars more, and all I have to do is invest a few hundred bucks in it beyond the purchase to make it suit me in every respect. The right decision is a no-brainer.
I could say something similar about the soprano clarinets.
In contrast, you have the problems with wood changing and cracking and the acoustical issues of many top line clarinets that cannot be corrected at any price. With those as realities does it matter how fancy the key plating is or how slick the packaging it comes in is?
My clarinet, on the other hand, is acoustically excellent, is dimensionally and materially stable, and can be made, if the customer so desires, to have all the cosmetic accoutrements of top line wood clarinets–– and still end up being a real savings.
While these things are true, their sum force does not cancel the reasonableness of your requests or discourage me from persisting in continuing to improve the models in that direction for the future––while trying to always keep the price as low as I possibly can. I will close by saying I wish I could make every decision about the production of the clarinets, but few designers I know have that kind of control––when I was at Leblanc I certain did not. I have to be satisfied with absolute control over the acoustics and work with the rest as best I can.
I believe you're right: the clarinet is well worth the money––despite those things you judge as perceived shortcomings, because it does the one thing that is important really, really well: it plays. The aspects you judge as short comings are all easily and relatively inexpensively fixable on your end––Once done, you have a great clarinet that will play the same day in and day out for virtually a lifetime. Not a bad deal.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and for the opportunity to give a response. That's super fair and I appreciate it.
Best regards,
Tom Ridenour<<<
EDIT: mr ridenour wanted to answer more detailed in the first and two last of his answers. so i posted them instead. //n
Post Edited (2007-12-08 12:37)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-12-08 01:19
Here's a quote from Tom Ridenour's response to Niclas Quote:
I believe my clarinets sound, play and tune as well if not better than any French-style Bb and A clarinets in the world––at a fraction of the price. Professional clarinet players in the US pay the high price for professional clarinets, AND take the clarinets to an artist repair tech and have them completely go over the clarinet, put in custom pads, regulate and adjust it, and this customizing, which does not include acoustical issues, costs them from $400.00 to $1000.00. Their total investment on a clarinet they paid $2200.00 for can easily run over three thousand dollars or more––and still the acoustical issues aren’t addressed as they should be? In a few weeks I will have a very good post (IMO). It may not be well written, but basically I'll have in my possession both my Ridenour Lyrique which is on the way back from overseas, AND my leblanc opus which I sent to Tom Ridenour to fix what needed to be fixed, tune-up whatever he felt needed to be adjusted, and I asked him to fit it with a barrel of his since he'll have it in his possession and would be able to pick out the best match for it.
I love my opus. It's the best clarinet I've played. But then I recieved the Lyrique while deployed. I hadn't played the opus in a few months when I had it so I haven't been able to do a side-by-side comparison, but probably around the beginning of january, I'll have both back.
So it'll be a Ridenour Lyrique Custom Bb clarinet (designed, tuned, and adjusted by Mr. Ridenour, of course), vs. a Leblanc Opus Bb (designed, tuned, and adjusted by Mr. Ridenour as well). And if the Lyrique custom even holds a candle to that clarinet, in my mind, that'll be enough proof to show that it really is a world-class, professional level instrument.
My predictions? I'd say 65% chance I'll love my leblanc more than the lyrique and continue my original plan of leblanc indoors, lyrique outdoors. 35% chance the lyrique will replace my opus and I'll have to start the heart-wrenching debate as to whether to sell my opus Bb. And if THAT happens, there'll be a consequential 100% chance of buying a Ridenour Lyrique A clarinet and comparing it against my (you guess it) Leblanc Opus A clarinet designed, tuned, and adjusted by Mr. Ridenour.
Alexi
PS - No matter what I'm keeping the A clarinet. It's the third one ever sold. I think it's pretty cool having such an early serial number clarinet.
US Army Japan Band
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