 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-19 23:36
Question 1.
Anybody know what kind of mouthpiece Benny Goodman used?
Question 2.
Would someone please clarify the characteristics of different "facing" on the mouthpiece, i.e. which #s for which styles, darker/brighter, the whole "open/closed issue...that sort of thing.
I have a (you guessed it!) 1953 Selmer Centered Tone, and short of trying every mouthpiece on the planet, I was hoping to narrow down the choices.
Thanks!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-10-19 23:55
From The Clarinet - Vol 14 No 1 - Fall 1986 -Interview with Benny Goodman on July 28, 1976 by Ralph Strouf:
Ralph: "Mr Goodman, what kind of mouthpiece do you play on?"
Benny: "Well, I think this says Hawthorne. I picked it up in England and its a fine mouthpiece. I have a better one at home someplace but I can't seem to find it."
...GBK
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-10-20 01:12
I'll just be vague about it. In "GENERAL" a more open mouthpiece (larger facing #) and softer reeds lends itself to a more difuse sound and vibrato. A close facing (low facing #) and hard reeds tends to be more focused and much steadier in pitch.
Now this is no hard and fast rule, however, I doubt anyone could sound like Sydney Bechet on a Vandoren M15 with #5 reeds.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-20 01:25
Well played, Paul!
I tend to "bend" notes, the way Bing Crosby sang, plenty 'o mordents 'n such.
Has anyone tried a Chadash-Hill mouthpiece? They busted up an original Chedeville and re-created the thing with modern equiptment, the facing finished by hand. I have a Bay Chedeville copy, and it suits me fine at the moment, but I've discovered that the shop I got it from (used) did a questionable "overhaul", and may have intentionally or not sold me a lemon.
Any thoughts?
Let's talk mouthpieces, people!
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-10-20 04:18
I think Benny also played an HS** for a while, with a #2 (!) reed. By the way I heard the Mozart Clarinet Concerto on the radio the other day. "Who the heck is that," I wondered, the sound was so "un-classical". It was Benny, of course. While the tone seemed a bit "off", he hit all the changes.
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-20 04:49
Kilo,
Thanks!
What is an HS**? I've not heard of it.
Are they still around?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-20 11:52
"I doubt anyone could sound like Sydney Bechet on a Vandoren M15 with #5 reeds."
No one except Sydney himself. Syd, reportedly, could whittle down a piece of wood and play it. If I could sound like Sydney Bechet I'd be in heaven.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-10-20 12:18
"What is an HS**? I've not heard of it.
Are they still around?"
It's a Selmer mouthpiece, and still available, although I'm not sure if it's exactly the same design, if the rubber is of equal quality, etc.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-10-20 13:18
Hi Sel'53, I [and many others] have a '54 C T which is my "jazz cl" and I've tried-out quite a few mps for it. Our Search archives have many discussions available for review. Since its a "large bore" horn, I try to match the bore of the barrel AND mp to the 15 mm [.590"] I D. Having several older Selmer mps, an HS*, a Sel-Johnston, and some Bundy 3's, plus some glasses, O'Briens and Sel-Clarions, I find them quite satisfactory, perhaps some with SLIGHT tip opening to be more of "jazz character", which then play better for me better with softer reeds, 2 - 21/2, harder perhaps if up in the altissimo, like Ron H on Riverwalk [S A] Jazz, Friday 9 PM [CDT], on NPR, GREAT !. I spoke to him briefly, he likes Selmer 10's and others. Have Fun, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-20 15:58
Thanks Don & Kilo!
I have another question for you, Don, regarding my Selmer.
The serial # indicates that it's a '53, so does this mean by default that it's a Centered Tone?
The reason why I ask is, the barrel, if it is original to the instrument, has a 9 under the logo. The pro. who is overhauling the clarinet at the moment measured all bores & said they were the same, but I was under the impression that the Series 9 didn't come to be until a year or so after '53.
Any thoughts?
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Author: William
Date: 2007-10-20 16:12
Selmer's "Centered Tone" clarinet was popular in the mid 1950s when I was in high school (my parents bought one for me). The "9" and "9*" series was popular around 1960 when I went to college (I still have a 9* that my parents bought me). The nines were supposed to be Selmers answer to the R13 Buffets and had slightly different bore configurations than the Centered Tones. The "9" on your barrel means that it was from a series 9 clarinet and probably not the original barrel on your "53". But if it works for you, whats the big deal???? Hope this helps a bit.
BTW--GBK's story regarding Benny reminded me of an artical I once read about Artie Shaw. It reported that he frequently would go into the local music store or pawn shoppe, ask to look through the used clarinet mouthpieces, buy the cheapest one and then take it back to his room where he would reface it until it played the way he wanted it to. The moral of the story--practice makes perfect, not necessarily equipement.
Post Edited (2007-10-20 20:53)
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-20 16:43
Thanks, William.
And it's the truth, Goodman & Shaw could've made a kazoo taped to a paper towel tube sound great!
Still, if intonation & playability can be enhanced...
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2007-10-20 21:38
The last time I visited Ralph Morgan, he showed me one of Mr. Goodman's mouthpieces that someone asked him to clone. It looked a little strange, squatty, compared to the pieces that Ralph was working on for me. Ralph imparted so much wisdom that day that a lot of it has fallen through the cracks in my old brain; I know he commented on the unusual tip and baffle, but I just can't remember the exact comments. Sadly, I can't just call Ralph anymore to ask this question. JunkDude was pretty close to Ralph, so I would imagine that he could answer this question pretty easily.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2007-10-21 06:19
Regarding the Series 9 and 9*...the 9 is very much like the CT, cylindrical large bore clarinet. The 9* was the 'answer to the R13', a poly-cylindrical design.
I interchangeably use a Morgan RM15 or a Kaspar K14 on both my Selmer CT and Series 9 (not 9*). I use Gonzalez 2 3/4 FOF.
Post Edited (2007-10-21 06:20)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-10-22 05:20
'53,
You write, "The serial # indicates that it's a '53, so does this mean by default that it's a Centered Tone?"
I think the short answer is "no." I'm wondering what the logo on the upper joint of your instrument looks like. If you have a "Centered Tone," I should think it would be obvious. They have a very prominent angled "Centered Tone" logo in script on the upper joint (and probably other sections).
Selmer had another professional line of instruments (made primarily for the European market, I think, though a number of them found their way to the states). These typically simply have the Selmer logo on the upper joint (and in other places) with the word "Depose" ("registered," most likely as in "registered trademark"). I've never seen a discussion of their design compared to instruments marketed in the U.S., such as the Centered Tone or Series 9 and don't know the extent to which their design changed over time.
As Jeff points out, the Series 9 (as opposed to the 9*) was a large-bore clarinet similar to the Centered Tone so it doesn't surprise me that a barrel from a Series 9 would match up with a Centered Tone, if that's what you truly have.
There is disagreement about this point on this bulletin board but, in my experience, mouthpieces with a larger exit bore tend to work better with large bore clarinets. I have a Series 9 that I use primarily for shows and jazz. A vintage Chicago Kaspar 14 works pretty well with it for me, as does a vintage Stowell, Wells & Schneider C3. On the other hand, until recently, I have never found a modern mouthpiece that worked very well, at all. The one exception I may have found (and the jury's still out) is a Lomax Andy Firth model. In any case, if you are looking at Selmer mouthpieces, I think you will have better luck with one that dates from the 1940's - 1960's than with a modern one with the same designation (e.g., HS, HS* or HS**).
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-22 05:52
Jack K.,
Thanks for the very educational response.
I don't have the clarinet with me at the moment, but I'm sure I would've noticed the words "Centered Tone" or "Dipose" on the upper joint.
The Serial # is P61xx, which according to this chart claims it's a '53...but maybe the chart is wrong. The place I got it had a blue book that said it was a '53, and I saw this chart after the fact so I had no reason to disbelieve what they read to me from the book in the shop. Take a look...
http://www.saxmaniax.com/snclarinet.htm
The fella who is doing a tremendous overhaul on it right now confirmed that the bore is 67mm, and that it is of that era. The 9 on the barrel is what's throwing me. That would be the "S" series, wouldn't it? And didn't those come around years later?
This all gets very confusing to me.
I'd love to have confirmation of what this model is.
What do you think?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-10-22 13:41
My TKS to all contributors, I also learned some things about my C T. I agree with jnk re: older Selmer mps being better [they are on the Mark 6 saxes as well]. Like mps, barrels can be exchanged too, my CT barrel [known !] is the same bore [by little finger test] as the U J, and bears only the "wreath with Selmer across it" logo. Incidentally, the Depose [which is on most of Sel's best cls] means [to me] "patented" , prob. in FR, or at least a filed application. I also had, and sold, what appeared to be a European [FR] cl of this vintage [Iagree with '53], but was a bit disappointed in it as compared with the CT, perhaps the logo just played better !! AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-22 14:02
Great Stuff, Don!
So, is there any other way to distinguish what model my clarinet is?
Would it absolutely, without a doubt say "Centered-Tone" on it if it indeed were one?
Would the European version have any other particular markings on it, or would it just be blank w/ the Selmer logo and serial #?
Thanks!
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Author: haberc
Date: 2007-10-22 23:50
Hi, I play a Selmer Series 9* - a terrific instrument. My current mouthpiece is an Otto Link Tone Edge 3*. Huge tone, which I like. I also have a Vibrator V8 which is great also. My third is Larry Combs 3.
I guess you can talk equipment forever. It's what you like.
But it is fun to talk about it!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-10-23 13:59
Sorry, Sel'53, your questions go beyond my knowledge, perhaps some of our BBoarders can help a bit. There is Selmer history available here and elsewhere on the net, try www.saxmaniac.com, etc. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-23 15:51
To Jack K.,
I got the clarinet back and you're right...
I can pick up the slightest hint of OSE over the logo. The DIP has been worn down.
So, I take it that this is in fact the European version of the "Centered Tone". I think the specs are the same, but I'll keep researching and let you know what I discover.
Take it easy,
-Selmer'53
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-10-23 17:27
Miscellaneously, there was once a "Benny Goodman" mouthpiece. I know, because I once saw (and let it slip through my fingers, dammit) a FB Selmer with the original sales slip dated 1944, and it had a "Benny Goodman" mouthpiece in the case. Didnt' play it, as it had been stored for many years in a closet & hadn't been acclimatized to open air (plus the old corks would have stripped right off the tenons if I'd tried to put it together).
That's the only evidence of a branded Benny Goodman mouthpiece I know of.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-23 17:36
I have one with "Benny Goodman" in gold script.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-10-23 17:59
Bob D, I also have a Benny Goodman [in script] mp, made? by B G [in a circle], plays OK for Jazz. Guess he "lent" his name to lots ?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Selmer'53
Date: 2007-10-24 00:13
I have a Vandoren 5RV that I play on sometimes, and a Bay Chedeville copy but I couldn't tell you squat about it other than what's inscribed on the thing...
The 5RV has "character" in relation to the '53 Selmer, but is very open...maybe too much so. I like how it bends notes and how they trail into & out of phrases, but like I said, I can hear the air bouncing around through it sometimes which makes me crazy.
The Bay is much more focused and the tone purer, but lacks the "character" of the former and the very highs/lows tend to muffle & strain.
Does anyone know how the HS** will differ from these or how close in relation it is to them?
I think what I need is an in-between of the two mentioned.
Thanks.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2007-10-24 00:35
For the record, my Selmer has both Depose and Centered Tone on the upper joint, along with France. The instrument was made in France, but purchased in Chicago. The barrel has only the traditional Selmer logo.
Also, I discovered that the Woodwind mpc I played for years and is appropriate for a large bore clarinet is beyond my ability to play with control. I did find a contemporary Selmer C* mpc that works very well. It seems that not only to the instruments age, but the players do too.
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Author: Dance Delight
Date: 2008-01-28 16:31
In March of 2007, I played Benny Goodman's A-clarinet at the Yale Museum of Musical Instruments. It is the only Goodman clarinet remaining there since the other was sold at auction. I had read previously that Benny liked the G7* (star) mouthpiece made by New York Woodwind out of steel ebonite. Sure enough, that is exactly the mouthpiece I found on that clarinet, and it produced the same marvelous tone you can still hear Benny playing above the clouds - open and bright (though after all the years the altissimo did not perform well, needing adjustment and pad work). That clarinet is a Selmer Brevete # K5321. I also have a vintage G7* and it is a very delicately balanced mpce. I had also read that he used a Vandoren 1.5 reed on it. I play the same on mine. I can even use a #1. It produces the exact tone that can still be heard on many of his early recordings, along with which I have played. I managed to replicate the "voice" of his clarinet with my Selmer Centered Tone. A hard reed will simply squeak. Vandoren 2.5 is too much! The #2 is even a bit too rigid in play. But the clarinet opens up and blows freely with the #1 and #1.5. I used a ligature like the one you can see on the link below. However, the BG Revelation brings it to life even more. So, I have seen the master's clarinet not only with my own eyes, but I have played it with my own lips on his G7* mouthpiece. I played it two days in succession, which will remain for me one of the most sacred musical memories of my life. - Charles Davidson
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/goodman_b.html
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Author: clarinboy
Date: 2008-01-30 00:57
HS** is the same as an HS* but a little more opened. Like a C** is more opened than a C*. We used to refer to the HS series as the High School mouthpiece but it probably stood for Henri Selmer. Not a very good mouthpiece by todays standard.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2008-02-01 23:18
Actually, the HS** is quite a bit more open than an HS*. HS*'s tend to be around 96 at the tip, while HS**'s are closer to 120. The bore on the newer Selmer mouthpieces is much smaller and a little shorter than the ones made in 1953.
5RV isn't an open facing- they are free-blowing, at least for me, but that is different from open.
Chris Hill
Post Edited (2008-02-01 23:19)
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