 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-15 06:23
For the repair people here, what are your favorite brands of springs? Where do you get them? Do you find some brands of springs to feel better for certain uses and other brands to be better for other uses?
Are there any tricks or special things that you do to make the spring feel different/better??
As for me, I have been using the springs from JL Smith and Co. for a while with good results, but sometimes I feel the metal is a bit on the soft side for some keys.
Post Edited (2007-10-15 08:33)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-10-15 10:10
I have only used blue steel needle springs and some types of stainless steel springs. From what I was told only some stainless steel springs are good. The ones from Kraus and the ones from J.L. Smith are supposed to be good. I haven't tried these, and the stainless steel springs I've seen weren't very good. The feel of blue steel springs is great imo and I think the good stainless steel ones are pretty much the same. I think the complaint of some repairers about blue steel springs is that they are brittle. It is about the same for flat springs. I've heard the brittle complaint about the blue steel flat springs too, and a little about the stainless ones. I didn't have any problems so far with the blue ones I use, or the stainless ones I've seen on instruments, other than on the very cheap instruments.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-15 12:33
The steel used for "blue" steel springs is (most likely) the same grade of steel as is used for sewing needles except that the blue temper oxide is replaced with nickel plating. There are several "families" of stainless steel and many grades within each family. Depending on which family and grade, springs made therefrom could be considered good or bad. For spring purposes the often used magnetic test for stainless is useless since the non-magnetic grades become slightly magnetic when made into spring wire.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-10-17 23:34
The "blued" needle springs of decades ago were excellent. They resisted rust, and were not brittle. Nowadays, the heat treatment is not done properly, so they are often too precariously brittle, introducing unreliability, and they are also more inclined to rust. They are possibly all from the same source; I know of no supplier who has a superior grade.
Kraus's stainless steel springs needle are of an excellent grade of metal, and every bit as good as the old steel springs. They are not brittle, and do not rust.
I have not been so impressed with Ferrees stainless steel. I would not use them on quality instruments.
On some cheap instruments the springs are of an alloy that barely does its job. Too thick and stiff, with a very low elastic limit.
There is far more to good springs than the alloy used. The diameter to length ratio should be as low as possible, in order to have minimum increase of resisting force during the travel of the key. Appropriate length and diameter mean that the spring will be operating close to its elastic limit.
Of course the design length of a spring is affected by, and affects a whole lot of the geometry of the mechanism, post location, and spring cradle position, etc.
Mark Vl has a good 'feel' in how the mechanism operates because in those days Selmer actually had a good mechanical design engineer, who attended to the design of springs, and related issues.
For delicate action springs, as is necessary for oboe, nickel-titanium alloy wire, as used by orthodontists, has outstanding characteristics, but I this has yet to be used in the woodwind industry.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-18 12:01
I get the impression that "stainless steel" springs...the round cross section straight ones....that are in common use for clarinets and saxes are not pointed as are the familiar blued steel ones. However, there is no reason a tech. couldn't shape a stainless spring just the same as a blued one despite the fact it would be a tedious job. Stainless springs made from a high carbon grade like 440A,B, or C...the common grades in the U.S. ....if made "pointed"... would, in essence, operate identically to a blued non-stainless pointed spring. Obviously the total market for sax and clarinet springs is miniscule compared to what it used to be for "needle wire" and "music wire". The old blued pointed springs were made from sewing needles....that is, simply, why they were pointed. The very shape of a needle, however, gave the old blued springs "reaction" properties that cannot be duplicated by any spring with constant cross section. That the old blued pointed springs gave a "feel" to key action that was superior and subtle was/is mainly due to the variable cross secton of the needle shape rather than the grade of steel. As regards the flat springs there is no reason they couldn't/can't be made from a stainless grade just as good as the blued ones and have the same "reaction" or feel.
Ah, the old Gillette blue blades.....same steel as the blued needle springs. Both markets essentially kaput. And then there are those little popcorn coiled springs !!
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-19 04:17
Just wanted to mention one of the things I find essential for springs. I usually put a curve in the springs to add tension- not unusual. But instead of bending the spring to the desired tension, I hammer the spring over a round metal rod. I do this to the entire length of the spring so that it a a gradual curve throughout. I find that this gives more of a "springy" feel as opposed to a "hard" feel.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-10-19 08:31
Bob, I'm not sure the pointy end really does anything but causes a lot of stabs! If I remember correct Kraus, who is usually a reliable source, claims the points aren't needed.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-21 14:29
Quick question- has anyone found a way to get the throat A spring to feel good? Since the spring is so short, it is either hard or too weak to hold the pad closed. This is a compound problem as the touchpiece is also so close to the axis.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-21 15:04
I think I used a rubber band once or twice but it didn't necessarily feel "good".
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-21 15:53
skygardener,
how about a self-made spring with a loop/pigtail in it?
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-21 19:01
This may have been one of the locations where Vito used those little popcorn coil springs....just not sure. I think more were lost than used.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-10-22 10:45
Skygardener wrote:
"Quick question- has anyone found a way to get the throat A spring to feel good? Since the spring is so short, it is either hard or too weak to hold the pad closed. This is a compound problem as the touchpiece is also so close to the axis."
A critical area of clarinet servicing.
1. To avoid a sluggish action, it is important to preserve as much effective length of the spring as possible. That means putting the bend in the spring very close to the screw, so that the rest of the spring does not contact the key. In many factory set-ups, this issue is ignored, and about half the length of the spring contacts the key.
2. If it is difficult to avoid the spring contacting the pivot tube, or any other part of the key, then grind away some of the metal.
3. Again, to do with the length of the spring... The distance between the pivot and the point where the spring contacts the body (parallel with the surface of the body) should be as great as possible. On many clarinets it is only 1 or 2 mm, so 0.1 mm too short can make a big difference. Get that contact point with the body as close to the F# key's tone hole as possible (without the end of the spring plunging into the F# key's pad!)
4. If the spring contacts the timber (or plastic) BODY rather than a small metal plate, and the end of the spring is quite sharp, then the end can wear a tiny groove in the timber. At the END of this groove, near the F# key's tone hole, there can be a tiny 'wall', which the spring presses up against as the throat A pad closes. This interferes with the spring action as the pad closes, and causes leaks.
5. The part of the spring that contacts the body should be rounded, either by a tiny amount of grinding, or by a slight bend in the spring.
6. The area of spring that contacts the body, should be buffed to a polished surface to reduce friction.
7. A tiny spot of grease on this contact point helps a lot.
Post Edited (2007-10-24 00:32)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-22 13:18
As usual, Gordon, your observations are extremely helpful to those of us who are still trying to master the clarinet's mechanisms. Thanks.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-22 14:18
Gordon,
I understand your comments are about flat springs (similar to the one used with the register key), rather than needle springs, right?
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-22 18:03
Sky...I'm definitely not being sarcastic and a bit miffed that you would think I was. Gordon's posts on this BB are among the most helpful and I have the highest respect for his expertise....and the time he has taken to help us out.
I might suggest that if you want to make such personal comments that you include your email address in your Profile or at least email direct to the person you are finding fault with. Best Wishes to you. Bob
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-10-24 00:39
Tictaktux wrote:
" Gordon, I understand your comments are about flat springs (similar to the one used with the register key), rather than needle springs, right?"
My last post, of 2007-10-22 was actually very specific to the throat A key's flat spring, in answer to the quoted question that Skygardener wrote. But some of that had general relevance to all flat springs. Good setting up of the clarinet throat A spring is exceptionally critical, because it operates in such a limited space.
My previous post, of 2007-10-17, was concerning needle springs.
Of course, basic principles of good spring design apply to both needle springs and flat springs.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-10-24 00:51
Skygardener wrote:
"Just wanted to mention one of the things I find essential for springs. I usually put a curve in the springs to add tension- not unusual. But instead of bending the spring to the desired tension, I hammer the spring over a round metal rod. I do this to the entire length of the spring so that it a a gradual curve throughout. I find that this gives more of a "springy" feel as opposed to a "hard" feel."
I rather suspect that the nature of the curve in a spring is irrelevant, other than:
1. The way it may affect the effective length, such as a flat spring that contacts the key for half of its length, effectively shortening it and giving it the 'sluggish feel' that results from too increase in resistance during travel.
2. The direction of a needle spring where it contacts the cradle, should be at right angles to travel direction of the cradle, otherwise the spring must slide in the cradle during its travel. Also, any component of spring force which is along the key axis, is wasted.
If you are beating these springs with a soft hammer, it will not distort the circular cross section of the spring.
However if you are beating it to a more oval cross-section with a hard hammer, then you are reducing the stiffness of the spring. Although this may give it a nicer 'feel', it will also reduce the force that the spring can apply.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-24 02:15
Gordon- "However if you are beating it to a more oval cross-section with a hard hammer, then you are reducing the stiffness of the spring."
Does not hitting metal harden it??? That was my thinking and the reason that I tried it.
Gordon- "Although this may give it a nicer 'feel', it will also reduce the force that the spring can apply."
If this does actually reduce the force it can apply, then perhaps this is the reason that I prefer it, as I am not a fan of "hard" springs.
[Edit] For needle springs- if the spring is curved you get just a bit more spring length from post to needle hook, right??
Post Edited (2007-10-24 04:03)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-24 08:13
Gordon,
okay, makes sense. All the clarinets that I bothered to mess around with have needle springs on the throat A key, so that's why I wasn't sure which "model" skygardener was talking about.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-10-24 08:42
"okay, makes sense. All the clarinets that I bothered to mess around with have needle springs on the throat A key, so that's why I wasn't sure which "model" skygardener was talking about."
Only about one model in a hundred has a needle spring there. The spring has to be so short, that it has real problems with 'sluggish' feel to the action.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-10-24 08:53
Skygardener: "Does not hitting metal harden it??? That was my thinking and the reason that I tried it."
Distorting the metal hardens it if it is a copper alloy or silver, or gold, etc, but not if it is steel , and I don't thing for for stainless steel either. Heat treatment is needed to harden steel.
Dimensionally, the stiffness of a spring has a lot more to do with its thickness I in the direction of its movement) than it does to do with its 'width' (at right angles to its length and movement)
"... then perhaps this is the reason that I prefer it, as I am not a fan of "hard" springs."
Fair comment. I occasionally grind a needle spring to thinner thickness (in the direction of its action) for the same reason. Quickest fix for a lousy cheap instrument at times - a few seconds with a diamond burr in the dental lab handpiece.
"For needle springs- if the spring is curved you get just a bit more spring length from post to needle hook, right??"
The difference would be minute unless you establish a huge curve for its pre-tensioned state (in the cradle). However you could increase its effective length without its overall length, by putting zig-zags in it, as is sometimes done for mattress springs. Much the same principle of coil springs, the reason they are occasionally used with the A key. I guess cosmetics plays a part here!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-10-24 09:35
> Only about one model in a hundred has a needle spring there.
Hmm. I stand corrected. The Bundies have them, but I don't know why I seemed to remember that others had them too. Yes, my other horns have the flat springs too. ![[huh]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie11.gif)
Man, I'm getting old. <shuffles to coffee machine, still shaking head>
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-24 13:41
"Distorting the metal hardens it if it is a copper alloy or silver, or gold, etc, but not if it is steel , and I don't thing for for stainless steel either. Heat treatment is needed to harden steel."
Yes and No. The three elements/alloys named can be made stronger..."work hardened" to some degree....gold the least. "Steel" identifies a wide variety of iron-carbon alloys with or without additional alloying additions. Steel can be made stronger by work hardening or by heat treatment. If it has been properly heat treated (hardened and tempered) then work hardening is usually a risky treatment and typically avoided. Because "needle wire" and "blueing" are open to wide interpretation the properties and subsequent treatment are variable.
This same ambiguity continues to apply to "surgical steel" which does not identify any alloy but only an end use.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-24 18:22
I don't know that there is such a thing, Sky.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-10-29 12:00
What's in my piano is too thick for clarinets.
And why use steel when a top grade stainless steel is available,that functions every bit as well as steel.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-29 12:32
Probably. Piano wire and Music wire are generic terms that have been used for many years. Various diameters of wire are used for pianos and, for all I know, different treatments may be used....heat treatments as well as cold drawing treatments. "Patenting" is one type of heat treatment that has been used. Guitar wire, Mandolin wire, Harp wire etc etc have also probably been used.
Bob Draznik
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-30 04:09
BobD- "Piano wire and Music wire are generic terms that have been used for many years." "Guitar wire, Mandolin wire, Harp wire etc etc have also probably been used."
I was thinking about it simply because this metal seems quite strong and resistant to breaking, but at the same time does have a bounce to it. Maybe thick guitar strings??? I have seen things in hardware stores labeled "piano wire" but clearly too thin for any piano I have met (maybe harpsichord  ).
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-10-30 15:44
>>Skygardener: "Does not hitting metal harden it???>>
The hardening process, called tempering, works differently in different types of metal. Most of my experience has been with metals used in stained glass construction. (I'm a retired stained glass designer-builder.) In general, though, tempering requires pounding or bending the metal while it's red hot or white hot (as in a blacksmith's shop) and then cooling it down. For many metals, cooling has to be done very slowly, a process called annealing. For instance, cooling brass too quickly will leave it brittle.
Some metals, especially if they've been layered by pounding thin, then folding over, pounding thin again, folding over, sandwiching layers, etc. (as with sword-making) anneal best if, while the metal is dull-red hot, the worker plunges it suddenly into cold liquid. The ancient Romans recommended, of all things, the urine of a red-headed boy for tempering swords. I have no idea why the Romans thought red hair made a difference! (Whatever this process did for the metal, this large vat of annealing liquid pribably had the added benefit of driving away any unwelcome kibbitzers....)
Hitting steel when it's cold doesn't temper it. Pounding on or bending steel when it's cold weakens it. Hitting a steel clarinet spring with a hammer one or six times while it's cold probably won't weaken it enough to matter, but repeatedly pounding on cold steel or messing around with the shape by bending it repeatedly back and forth will introduce brittleness and metal fatigue. A spring manipulated a lot while cold is more likely to break than a spring bent quickly and expertly into the right shape without a lot of monkeying around.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-10-30 16:16
Lelia Loban wrote:
> (Whatever this process did for the metal,
Nitriding (surface hardening) via the urea in the urine. It really works quite well (quenching and nitriding simultaneously - darn near perfect).
Now, how they stumbled upon this discovery might be an ... uh ... "interesting" question ...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-30 17:20
Amazing what one can learn here. Most nitriding operations I am familiar with involving steel require relatively high temperatures and long times. I seriously doubt that quenching red hot steel into urine (from any source) would put any nitrogen into the iron. In fact the quenching would harden steel assuming there was enough carbon in it and would only cool iron without any hardening effect. Cyaniding is an old tool maker's method of nitriding steel also used by blacksmiths but cyanide salt is hard to come by today. Most metallurgists would probably advise that tempering is a heat process applied to hardened steel to reduce brittleness. Urinating in the quench tank was quite common throughout the history of steel treating only because of the convenience of the receptacle . I believe the red haired Italians came from Northern Italy and had Viking bloodlines. There are as many fables involving steel and its treatment as there are about clarinets ,however, virgins were thrown into molten metal and thrusting a red hot sword blade (or harpoon) into the buttocks of a slave was done. Now, I hope someone doesn't think I'm being sarcastic.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-10-30 18:43
BobD wrote:
> Amazing what one can learn here. Most nitriding operations I
> am familiar with involving steel require relatively high
> temperatures and long times. I seriously doubt that quenching
> red hot steel into urine (from any source) would put any
> nitrogen into the iron.
I remember doing the equations back in my nuclear metallurgy days, Bob. It would have worked fine. Not nearly as effective or efficient - or repeatable - as our gas-nitriding systems today, though.
The "urine of a red-haired boy" comes from Theophilus, Diversarium artium schedula
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Author: mk
Date: 2007-11-01 04:10
what magnetic test are you referring to.. I am not an engineer but thought magnetism is used during the heat treatment process to determine the degree of hardness that has been achieved...please clarify
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-01 04:17
Mark, do you know if that nitriding with urea imparts any rust-resisting properties? The lack of urea could be what went wrong with modern needle spring making, in that they seem to be far less rust resistant than they used to be. Ha!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-01 05:28
Lelia- "A spring manipulated a lot while cold is more likely to break than a spring bent quickly and expertly into the right shape without a lot of monkeying around."
So I take it you bend the spring at only one point and you do it quite quickly. Along the length of the spring from base to tip, where do you suggest bending?? I have reciently been trying different places (as well as shapes like the curve I mentioned earlier) and I am still looking for the "sweet spot".
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-11-01 11:01
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> Mark, do you know if that nitriding with urea imparts any
> rust-resisting properties?
Sorry, no. The exercise we did was "academic" in the truest sense - and was more complex that we - as students - thought it would be.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-11-01 12:09
Mark, thanx for the info on nitriding!
skygardner wrote,
>>So I take it you bend the spring at only one point and you do it quite quickly. Along the length of the spring from base to tip, where do you suggest bending?? I have reciently been trying different places (as well as shapes like the curve I mentioned earlier) and I am still looking for the "sweet spot".
>>
I wish I could give a "one size fits all" answer here, but different shapes work best for different-sized springs in different places on the clarinet. But, yes, I do try to avoid bending a spring back and forth many times. If the spring I'm replacing seemed to have a good shape, but I'm ditching it because it was rusted beyond salvation, or because it's a replacement spring made of a different metal than the originals (call me a fussbudget, but it bugs me to see one bright metal spring on a clarinet from the 1920s with otherwise blued springs), then I use the old spring as a template and make any minor adjustments from there.
But, it's much more common that I'm replacing a spring because the original is missing, broken, obviously misshapen, etc. and no good as a template. Then I look at and try to copy from the same spring on whatever other clarinet I've got that's as similar as possible to the one I'm working on and that's in good playing condition. I take measurements and try to put the bend (if any--I leave some springs straight) where it works well on the other clarinet. Then I see how the setup works and usually any more bending I need to do will be minor. The thing I really try to avoid is bending a spring too far the first time, so that I have to bend it *back*--or, worse, back and forth and back and forth. To keep the metal strong, I try to creep up on the "sweet spot"--keep bending slightly *in the same direction* until it's right. That process won't hurt anything. It's the impatient see-sawing back and forth that does the damage.
In real life, I'm not always that tidy. If (when!) I do have trouble shaping a spring and bend it so many times that I suspect I've introduced metal fatigue before I get the shape right, I take it off the clarinet, choose a new spring of the same size and use the one I've bent too much as the template to bend the fresh one just once. Then I throw away the one I think I may have fatigued. I buy springs in bulk and they're cheap enough to make this an easy choice. I'd rather toss the suspect spring in the trash right now than have to take the clarinet apart again later because the spring breaks--and then have to monkey around with the shape all over again.
(Btw, I should have noted above that restoring old clarinets is a hobby for me, not a profession; therefore you can safely assume that I don't know what I'm doing half the time...maybe more than half!)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-02 01:18
"sweet spot"!!
I think we are getting a bit carried away here.
1. Where the spring contacts the spring cradle, the line of the spring should be at right angles to the movement of contact point during the key's movement.
2. There should be no localised sharp bends in the spring, near the post, because this creates a weak point.
I rather think that all else is cosmetic or imaginary.
(The situation is slightly different for flat springs, because an inappropriate bend can shorten the effective length of the spring, by putting too much of the spring in contact with the key.)
If you want the maximum tension from a spring, you need to bend it as far as possible, but not so far that it reaches its elastic limit before being hooked over the spring cradle. Otherwise it is in a slightly unstable state, and weaken slightly again with use.
For keys held closed by needle springs (especially G#/D#), it is best to displace the key towards the spring, BEFORE placing the spring in its cradle, BEFORE returning the key between its post and fitting the hinge rod. Otherwise the spring is likely to be too weak by the time you have displaced it around the end of the spring cradle.
IMO as always.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-11-02 05:27
> The lack of urea could be what went wrong with modern
> needle spring making, in that they seem to be far less rust
> resistant than they used to be. Ha!
So next time a customer comes to change a spring you're going to say "I'm going to use a blue needle spring, can you please turn around for a minute?"
> or because it's a replacement spring made of a different metal than
> the originals (call me a fussbudget, but it bugs me to see one bright
> metal spring on a clarinet from the 1920s with otherwise blued springs)
If that one bright spring is a new good quality stainless steel spring, for example one that was replaced because the former blue spring broke, then you're only improving esthetics and possibly putting a worse spring. Of course t's different if you're talking about one of the terrible stainless steel springs like on many student and cheap instruments.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-04 11:36
On the same subject of spring adjustments- is there a way of removing the bounce from the LJ F#/C# key other than just making the spring really hard?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-05 02:30
Do mean bounce as the pad encounters the tone hole?
I suspect you are sliding your finger off the edge of the key rather than
lifting it.
Otherwise, it could be because of the type of pad, or something sloppy about the pivot, etc.
Or do you mean bounce of that left hand lever itself, rather than involvement of the pad?
If so, then it is probably because there is an inappropriate damping material under the lever where it hits the body. Natural cork, for a start, is not too suitable, that far from the hinge. Kraus's synthetic cork, or quality felt would be better.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-05 03:03
Gordon- "Do mean bounce as the pad encounters the tone hole?
I suspect you are sliding your finger off the edge of the key rather than
lifting it."
Well yes, I did mean if I slide, and although this is bad technique, it dosn't happen with other keys nearly as much or at all. The pivots are fine, but the pads are a synthetic kind of rubbery material that I have been experementing with. However, this seems to happen to some extent no matter what kind of pad I use. The only time I have not experienced it was on an old Buffet I have that has a flat spring under the key touch and not a needle spring.
What do you mean by "Or do you mean bounce of that left hand lever itself, rather than involvement of the pad?" I have never experienced any way this could happen as that key is always stopped by the pad hitting the body.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-05 08:49
".. although this is bad technique,..."
Yes, bad technique, because it encourages bouncing and noisy action, so not worth worrying about. Correct the technique. You'd have a whole heap of bouncing if you did this on a sax!
"... it doesn't happen with other keys nearly as much or at all... this seems to happen to some extent no matter what kind of pad I use... "
Possibly something to do with torsion in the long rod, the "moment of inertia" of the parts of the keys (especially the touch-piece end), and particularly the short key cup arm that this key has.
"... the pads are a synthetic kind of rubbery material that I have been experimenting with..."
There's part of your answer. Felt is a good damping material, whereas rubber is a good bouncing material!
"... The only time I have not experienced it was on an old Buffet I have that has a flat spring under the key touch and not a needle spring..."
Possibly because of:
1. A whole heap more friction associated with this type of spring.
2. The spring is at the other end of the key, so the torsion and the moment of inertia of the touch piece end lose most of their significance.
"...What do you mean by "Or do you mean bounce of that left hand lever itself, rather than involvement of the pad?" I have never experienced any way this could happen as that key is always stopped by the pad hitting the body...."
There is another type of linkage between lever and key on some models, where there is no pin in a hole, but where the lever presses up under part of the key.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-11-05 12:49
I don't slide except if when I absolutely need to- which is only very, very rare emergencies and I don't really consider it a technique of any sort.
Yes, I remember all the bouncing keys on sax and it always bothered me.
Perhaps I am too picky about these things. It happens on new clarinets of just about every make I have tried, also. Maybe I should [gasp] accept things the way they are.
I do know about the non-pin design (quite an improvement in some ways)- I guess I was just thinking inside my own box and forgot what you could be meaning.
Cheers for all the help.
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Author: perryg114
Date: 2007-11-05 18:18
1070 Carbon Steel Round Wire Assortment— Spring Temper (Matte Finish)
Meets ASTM A228. Material in this 100-piece assortment is also known as music wire. Assortment includes 12" straight lengths of 0.020", 0.025", 0.032", 0.035", 0.041", 0.047", 0.050", 0.055", and 0.062" diameters. Rockwell hardness is C41-C60. Tensile strength is 230,000-399,000 psi. Maximum temperature is 250° F. Length tolerance is ±0.010". Color is gray. Comes in a clear plastic tube. 8919K25 Each $18.82
The above I have used with great results from mcmaster.com. Find the correct diameter then flatten the end and cut to length.
All types of steel are going to have the same modulus of elasticity meaning the spring rate is a function of the diameter not the type of steel. The temper and alloy are going to determine how far it bends before breaking or taking a permanent set. The heat treated carbon steel needle springs are very brittle but they are very consistent. The stainless steel and milder carbon steels are going to tolerate more bending back and forth before they break. By bending back and forth I mean plastic or permanent bending not elastic as when they are used as a spring. The needle springs are going to have a different and maybe non-linear spring rate hence the different feel.
Perry
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-06 10:44
"...All types of steel are going to have the same modulus of elasticity meaning the spring rate is a function of the diameter not the type of steel. The temper and alloy are going to determine how far it bends before breaking or taking a permanent set. ..."
Spring rate in combination with elastic limit are serious design considerations.
If a steel spring, because of its alloy &/or heat treatment, has a higher elastic limit than another steel spring, then a thinner one can be used to provide (with more extreme pre-tension) the same force, and the force that the player needs to exert will then increase less during the travel of the spring. This minimal increase of force during travel is what the player interprets as "good feel'.
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Author: perryg114
Date: 2007-11-06 13:06
Sounds like you understand the physics and the real world very well. So now we know why the older highly tempered needle springs have a better feel than the thicker stainless springs used on many instruments today.
Something tells me you have been properly fixing instruments for a long time.
Perry
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-11-06 21:30
But if an appropriate grade of stainless steel is used, (unlike that on most if not all student instruments using S/S), then the spring characteristics can be every bit as good as the best steel springs. With the important bonus of not rusting. These are available (to technicians only) from Kraus.
But don't expect top flute makers to replace their snobby gold springs with stainless in a hurry, even though it is better!
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Author: The Watcher
Date: 2012-05-03 06:49
I have a question regarding springs for all you repair people.
Buffet has changed the springs in their intermediate E11 model with the new E11 France from blue steel to stainless. What is your opinion of this change? Are the stainless as good as the blue springs?
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Author: Campana
Date: 2012-05-03 08:19
Stainless steel is not a definitive description. It is a steel alloy with vastly varying additives, from chrome on it's own in low proportions, to increased proportions plus nickel before you even get to more exotic additives. It's has a version for cutlery, marine use, very high temperature boiler tube to name but a few. Stainless steel can be what the designer wants it to be.
In other words it can under perform or out perform blue steel depending on specification.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2012-05-03 18:34
This is a reincarnaton of a very old thread. There are grades and tempers of stainless steels that are every bit as good as "blue" but finding a supplier is an iffy proposition.
Bob Draznik
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The Clarinet Pages
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