 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-17 04:52
I just thought that this is a useful topic to go into as hearing is important for all musicians.
How many of you have tinnitus ? How severe is it? Does it cause you any problems in life/music??
And the most important question...
Have you any way to get rid of it or even reduce it??
As for me- I have had it for about 5-6 years consistantly and I have had it off and on for about 10 years. It has caused me to basically cut out the hope or possibility of orchestra/band work as that (ie. trumpets) was the cause. As for treatments- I have tried Chinese herbal tea, massage, acupressure, and meditation but I really have found no effect from any of them. The only thing that makes a difference is to be careful to not expose myself to loud volumes of any kind. As long as I have a quite life, so to speak, the tinnitus is not that bad, but if I go into a loud environment for a while it begins to get painful.
Your experiences...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-17 10:35
I guess I have some but it seems to come and go. At times I have suspected that it is actually "stray" high pitched sound from a tv set. Have you consulted an ear specialist?
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-10-17 10:49
I get the odd spell of tinnitus from time to time, but it usually clears up within a few minutes.
Though I've mostly had tinnitus-like symptoms when going into shock, around the same point where vision goes all funny (when everything appears as bright blue and yellow).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jhall
Date: 2007-10-17 11:26
skygardener,
I have tinnitus from too many years directing and playing in bands. When it was diagnosed, the audiologist prescribed ear plugs that reduced sounds evenly across the spectrum. One can get used to them.
An audiologist will probably tell you everything that you have already figured out. The ringing will stay. It was caused by long exposure to loud music/noises. There's no remedy.
If staying away from loud sounds helps, that's what you need to do. Some find cutting down on caffeine helps a little.
God Luck!
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2007-10-17 13:36
skygardener,
I've had it for at least 30 (I've lost count) years (I'm 62). My ear/nose/throat specialist said it was probably caused by having worked at the airport very close to turbo jet engines in the 1960s, which seems likely. One of my jobs was to pull out the ground power cable at the landing gear cowling on Vanguards after the pilot had started the engines. That plug was close enough to the propeller so that I could have reached out and touched the prop. The noise was incredible, and TCA didn't supply hearing protection; health and safety was not an important issue for some employers in those days......
Since having that job, I've always worn hearing protection even to vacuum my house or cut the grass.
How severe is it?
As long as I'm distracted or concentrating on something else I don't notice it much.
Does it cause you any problems in life/music?
Not really. My hearing is good for my age. My problems with music can be summed up as "not enough practise time".
And the most important question...
Have you any way to get rid of it or even reduce it?
My ENT specialist told me to take a zinc supplement, but it didn't seem to make a difference in my case. I understand that the additional zinc can cause other problems, so it's best to talk to a medical expert.
Some medicines (aspirin, tylenol) seem to exacerbate my tinnitus.
I hope this is helpful. A search will probably turn up earlier threads on this topic.
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-10-17 14:19
I've got constant low-level tinnitus which seems to be slowly getting worse with the years (I'm 49 now), along with significant loss of high-frequency response. Probably from years of playing in Top 40/wedding/rock bands (and maybe from sitting in front of the trombones in jazz bands and low brass & percussion in concert bands and orchestras?).
Earlier this year, thanks to a middle ear infection, I had a weird encounter with a syndrome called "diplacusis" (thanks to Tony Pay for identifying it!), search for the thread on that if you want to read about a truly bizarre aural phenomenon.
I'm finding it more and more difficult to judge my tone quality and dynamic balance in the groups I play with -- instead of being able to decide on my own whether my tone is 'good' and volume level correct, I'm having to depend on the conductor and fellow musicians to let me know how I'm doing. I don't like that!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bbarner
Date: 2007-10-17 14:52
I have tinnitus but I only notice it when I'm in a very quiet room. Thus, it is only a problem when I am trying to go to sleep. However, I have solved my problem with a bubbling fountain in the bedroom. It makes a soft, gentle babbling brook sound, not loud enough to mask the ringing in my ears, but loud enough to hear and ignore. While I ignore the constant bubbling sound I also ignore the ringing. Any constant, ignorable sound can help. You can turn on a radio and tune it to white noise between stations or buy a soothing-sound generating device and select the ocean waves or rain channel, etc. You don't notice the humming of the refridgerator when you are in the kitchen but if you pay attention to it you can hear it. Your brain tunes out constant, unimportant sounds. This is one of the principles behind "tinnitus retraining therapy". You can find websites and book about this technique by Googling it.
Bill Barner
http://www.billbarner.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: susieray
Date: 2007-10-17 15:38
I have a moderately severe hearing loss, which I was born with,
but was worsened by chronic ear infections for the first 12 years
or so of my life. I have both tinnitis and diplacusis and I don't
exactly like it either. The tinnitis is something I mostly notice
when it's quiet, although it's there constantly....for me it sounds
kind of like the ocean but with occasional ringing and loud clicking
sounds mixed in. I am able to ignore it most of the time.
The diplacusis is more annoying and makes it really confusing
when playing music with others, and if you want to speak to
me you'd better be right in my face or I will not understand a word
of it.......but it's just someting I live with and I'm happy that I'm not
TOTALLY deaf.
Post Edited (2007-10-17 15:40)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sdr
Date: 2007-10-17 17:12
I see LOTS of tinnitus patients in my day job as an ear specialist (otologist) at a major academic teaching hospital in the northeast US.
Virtually ALL patients with hearing loss of any cause or magnitude have some tinnitus. So do many people with perfectly normal hearing. While tinnitus can acutally be generated by the ear in cases when the ear is "sick" (e.g. inflamed, traumatized, or actively degenerating), in the vast majority of cases the tinnitus is a central phenomenon; i.e. it is a perceptual event in the central nervous system. In the case of hearing loss patients, it is analogous to "phantom limb" -- amputees who still "feel" their missing body part. If you have lost hearing, your brain misses the incoming signal in that particular frequency/pitch domain and "turns up the gain" to seek the missing signal (a bit like turning up your car radio while you scan for a station as you drive across Pennsylvania). When the gain is turned up high enough, you begin to "hear" random electrical activity in the circuits (like static on your radio). Since this is occurring in the specfic frequency domain where your hearing was "amputated," the pitch of the tinnitus will mimic the pitches missing from your hearing -- high pitched hearing loss is associated with high pitched tinnitus and low pitched hearing loss with low pitched tinnitus.
Some patients have tinnitus so mild that they only hear it in a soundproof booth when they really listen for it. Others find it so intrusive that it distracts them from external/environmental sounds. Just about all tinnitus patients report that tinnitus is loudest when it's new, when there is nothing else to listen to (e.g. in bed at night), or when they are sick, tired, or stressed out. When they are at Club Med on the beach, it is gone. Likewise, when they are focusing on something, well-rested, and feeling pretty good, they do not notice it. The best evidence is that the neurophysiologic events that create the tinnitus are very small. The apparent loudness of the tinnitus is a function of attention. If you attend to the tinnitus, you bring it into the perceptual foreground and it seems louder. If you listen to other stuff, the tinnitus tends to drift into the background. This is partially, but not completely under voluntary control. Tinnitus intensity may also vary with activation of muscles in the neck, jaw, or scalp, with medications, allergies, change in barometric pressure, or diet. Tinnitus intensity does NOT correlate with magnitude of hearing loss. Perhaps the healthiest way to think about tinnitus is like a coal miner's canary -- it is an early warning system about your general health and well-being. If you find that your tinnitus is increasingly intrusive, it is time to take inventory about your sleep, fitness, stress level, and general wellness. It is not necessarily time to run to the ear doctor.
Approximately 50% of tinnitus patients find that the tinnitus is masked or suppressed in the presence of environmental sound and the other 50% find that environmental sounds synergize with the tinnitus and make it louder. For hearing impaired patients with tinnitus, a fringe benefit of hearing aids is tinnitus suppression in about 50% of users. Besides medical work-up to rule out treatable causes of ear disease, and trial of a masking sound like a beside radio or white noise generator (and possibly including the very expensive and slow Tinnitus Retraining Therapy), there are no proven effective means to suppress tinnitus. There are testimonials for all kinds of herbal and homeopathic remedies, acupuncture, biofeedback, hypnosis, chiropractic manipulations, craniosacral balancing, dietary supplements, etc., etc., etc., but none of these has been shown effective in rigorous clinical trials. When I was training many years ago, my professor, the most famous eare specialist in the universe at that time, asked his tinnitus patients their shoe size. He told them to buy a pair one size too small -- by the end of the day they no longer noticed their tinnitus. He also said, "Don't worry unless it stops....that means you're dead." Perhaps not the most sympathetic answers, but a large kernel of truth in both.
Finally, there is a very small subset of tinnitus patients who are truly derailed by their symptoms. They become anxious, depressed, and psychologically disabled. Some commit suicide. Patients who are having difficulty coping with tinnitus do not need an otologist so much as they need a "coping specialist" such as a psychiatrist or psychologist who can help them get their symptoms under control.
-sdr
---------------------------------
Steven D. Rauch, MD
Assoc. Prof., Otolaryngology
Harvard Medical School
Mass. Eye & Ear Infirmary
Tel: 617-573-3644
Fax: 617-573-3939
Email: steven_rauch@meei.harvard.edu
---------------------------------
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-10-17 17:13
I have tinnitus, it started a few years ago. I am 60. My doctor said it might be from my slightly high blood pressure. I wear earplugs at night to help me sleep and notice it then, but not much during the day and only when it is quiet. Doesn't affect my playing or listening to music. I have never been exposed to a lot of loud noise at work etc. I just kind of live with it.
...Jim
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kjs
Date: 2007-10-17 17:33
Thank you for your comments Dr. Rauch.
I have raised the issue with all the big groups I play with; band and orchestra. They are grudgingly accomodating to not quite 'rolling their eyes'.
I discussed music induced hearing loss with my husband who is a mechanical engineer. When I said that one row in front of me the flutes and oboes seem not bothered at all he replied 'sound dissipates by the cube of the distance'.
I've tried cheap earplugs with the normal difficulty in judging dynamics, tuning and all music featuring me on my clarinet (sounding overbearing and somewhat kazoo-like). A fine musician friend told me that the expensive 'musician' earplugs have similar drawbacks.
So my latest tact is to get the french horns whose bells point sideways positioned behind me or, alternatively, put about 6 feet or more between me and the bells of the trumpets and trombones and tympani. No group has sprung for the Lucite or Plexiglass shields yet.
I do not have Tinnitus, but, exposure to primarily trumpets over the years has reduced my upper range hearing.
Stepping off the soapbox---have you tried sound cancelling headphones? I know they are for outside noise, but maybe they'd offer some solace when you want to enjoy the sound of silence....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-10-17 18:44
Dr. Steve,
As usual, a tremendous explanation in lay terms.
Thanks,
HRL
PS The miner's canary was terrific analogy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-10-17 19:32
I've had it for many years, after sitting in front of trumpets, etc. I hope I can offer some encouragement in that it no worse now than say twenty years ago. Furthermore, I'm 82.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Granger
Date: 2007-10-17 19:34
Since no one else has mentioned it, unless I missed it, some tinnitus is caused by dental issues and can be treated accordingly. About 10 years ago I started experiencing tinnitus on waking up in the morning. It was either a steady pitch or an oscillation between two pitches, like an overtone sequence. It would fade somewhat during the day at times, only to reappear with renewed vengeance in the morning. When I saw my ear nose and throat Dr. she asked me a bunch of questions to each of which I answered "no." Then she asked me if I grind my teeth at night - which I had for years. I got a mouthguard to wear at night, and the tinnitus cleared up. It still reappears sometimes when I have been clenching my jaw, but faintly. Often it's not there at all. My TMJ is bad enough that I wore through my first mouthpiece and broke the molar under that spot and had to get a crown. Just thought I'd pitch this in case anyone else is experiencing tinnitus related to TMJ or possibly another dental issue.
Ed
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-10-17 21:23
Thanks to Dr.Steve for the explanation. I can't help but think that the term "tinnitus" comes from "the cry of tin" which must be familiar to some other old timer metallurgists. When i first heard of "the cry of tin" I thought it was a joke...not. If you're lucky enough to have access to a bar of tin you will hear it cry if you bend it. Yes, in the really old days "tinsmihs" used to travel around the countryside resoldering tin pans that had developed holes and they carried bars of tin with them.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-19 04:25
Someone asked if I have been to a doctor. Yes. The doctor's answer was that my hearing was super sensitive- I can hear sound much sofer than normal people and that I also feel pain at lower volumes than normal people. No doubt a mixed blessing. His answer was the special earplugs that I found to be no better than nomal foam earplugs except that they are easier to put into and pull out of my ears. Their effects was essentialy the same for me. I can see that they might be useful for anyone except wind instrument players. They seem to work fine except when I start playing- at that point I can just about hear nothing except myself, since the sound is from the inside of my mouth.
His short answer was to just to find a new love as there is no treatment for sound induced hearing problems.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-10-19 13:47
I also have tinnitus, attributed to being in the artillery during my first 12 years in the Army (they moved me to personnel when I began having ear problems)
Anyhoo, mine is a steady high pitched tone which I have grown quite accustomed to, so I don't notice it most of the time as I tune it out in the presence of other sounds and ambient noise around me. The only time it bothers me is when I am around a TV, as the horizontal oscillator squeal of the TV and my tinnitis tone are close together in pitch and they start up a most distracting warble. So, I just don't watch TV . . . considering the quality of what's on there, I haven't missed anything worth watching.
Eu
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: saxlite
Date: 2007-10-19 19:34
EuGeneSee---If you are bothered by the TV's horizontal oscillator noise, then you should try a non-CRT TV such as an LCD or Plasma type.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2007-10-19 19:38
SDR,
I saw an ad on TV for a new drug to treat tinnitus, but I didn't pay enough attention to get the details.
I'm sure you're familiar with this. Is it worth considering?
B
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-10-19 20:33
saxlite:
Golly, I thought about those quiet-type TV's, but after several years of freedom from the one-eyed monster, I don't even want a quiet one. I see a TV going continually every time I visit my mother (85 and glued to that box), siblings, and friends . . . best I can tell, TV has gone from bad to worse (except with some concessions to PBS, ETV, History Channel, etc. if one wants to fork over $50 per month to get all the "decent" channels).
Nope, I can get DVD's of the stuff I like off of that auction place, and out of the Kultur catalogue, then I can enjoy them whenever I wish and as often as I like . . . using a DVD player with a LCD monitor.
Eu
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sdr
Date: 2007-10-20 03:25
Skygardener,
Regarding your comment: "The doctor's answer was that my hearing was super sensitive- I can hear sound much sofer than normal people and that I also feel pain at lower volumes than normal people."
I have never encountered someone who hears softer sounds than normal people. This is hard to imagine. In studies of uncomfortable loudness, there range of loudness that elicits discomfort and/or pain is actually very narrow -- almost everyone feels the onset of discomfort at similar loudness. However, what varies widely is the level of discomfort -- some patients barely notice the discomfort and others run screaming from the sound booth. This is really no different than the variation in pain tolerance seen across the population. The condition of extreme discomfort in response to loud sound is called "hyperacusis." It can be seen in any damaged ear, but is most common in migraineurs. Modern conception of migraine is not just a wicked headache -- it is a global disturbance of sensory signal processing in the brain. Any or all sensory phenomena may be experienced with heightened intensity, light, sound, pain, touch, smells, tastes, or motion. Migraine suppression with a migraine diet and lifestyle and/or with migraine suppressant medications (e.g. beta blockers, tricyclics or calcium channel blockers) will often reduce the hypersensitivity symptoms.
bmcgar,
Regarding your comment: I saw an ad on TV for a new drug to treat tinnitus, but I didn't pay enough attention to get the details. I'm sure you're familiar with this. Is it worth considering?
Obviously I cannot give specific medical advice by email to people I've never met, not will I endorse a specific product. Generally speaking, the remedies for tinnitus that are advertised in the lay press are "nutraceuticals" and "dietary supplements" and, therefore, NOT regulated by the FDA (Food and Drug Administration). They can make all kinds of unsubstantiated claims in their advertising without good clinical research to back them up. I am aware of none that have been shown effective in rigorous clinical trials. Here is my general comment about such products: I have no doubt that ground up leaves and flowers contain active chemicals. In fact many prescription drugs are extracted from plants. In the prescription drug you know (1) exactly what is the active compound and (2) how much is in the pill or capsule and (3) that every pill or capsule contains exactly the same dose. You can also find a great deal of information about how a prescription drug might interact with other drugs. In the case of the herbal remedy you have none of these important details. If you are perfectly healthy, on no other prescription drugs, and can afford to spend your money on the product you just heard about, caveat emptor, but go ahead and try it if you wish. If you have other medical problems and take prescription drugs, such as anti-retrovirals, blood pressure or heart meds, anti-depressants, or anti-coagulants, taking a mystery pill is CRAZY!
-sdr
---------------------------------
Steven D. Rauch, MD
Assoc. Prof., Otolaryngology
Harvard Medical School
Mass. Eye & Ear Infirmary
Tel: 617-573-3644
Fax: 617-573-3939
Email: steven_rauch@meei.harvard.edu
---------------------------------
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-20 04:16
Dr. Rauch,
Accoring to the tests I took 5 years ago I heard (at the time of the test) some pitches in the high range as low as -10 and -15 decibles. My threshold of discomfort was determined at 90-100 decibles depending on the pitch.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-20 07:27
ps. The doctor mentioned that the eardrum looked like it had some scar tissue and that it had possibly been ruptured at some point many years prior.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-10-20 15:48
I have tinnitus in both ears - the right one is more severe thanks to an obnoxious trombonist blasting in my ear before a rehearsal years ago. But, I figure years of playing in school bands - 4th - 12th grade, as well as Region and Allstate Wind Ensembles contributed greatly to the onset of tinnitus long before the incident. My paternal grandmother also suffers from tinnitus and hearing loss, but was never a musician or worked in a loud environment. I have to wonder if some hearing loss is in fact genetically predetermine - not entirely environmental.
Now I do use ear plugs - the reusable type made out of silicone with ridges. I hate foam ear plugs with an extreme passion, but I know many musicians use them. The type I use are better for me because I can adjust the depth due to the ridges - to accomodate the type of work or playing situations. At home, I also use them when I work on the altissimo register - as my right ear gets bothered after a time...or at least I believe I'm doing damage to my hearing playing that high for too long. Overall, my own playing does not bother my ears, but listening to someone up close at times does.
I really wish that ear plugs were introduced to kids when they start band programs. While some kids are lucky to get the message by HS, many of my peers did not even consider ear plug usage until they were well into college - myself included. Most musicians end up using ear plugs after they start to suffer the affects of hearing loss/tinnitus ...which is not a proactive approach as most of our hearing damage occurs years before in our youth.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ski
Date: 2007-10-21 07:46
I have tinnitus also. Both ears. I'm 45 now but I recognized that I had tinnitus at 8 years old.
The character/characteristics of my tinnitus has changed many times over the years. When I was 8 I heard it as a general, very low-level "roaring" with a definite high frequency component, i.e., not a distinct note but more like a high frequency "hash" in both ears.
After playing in various bands over many years I developed a ring that was more pronounced in one ear. It was a high C, so at least it was in tune ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) . That's since dissapated, but over time other pitches developed... At one time I had two distinct notes ringing in one ear, one in the other. That's since dissapated as well.
These days I no longer hear distinct notes. Instead, I have what could be likened to that high frequency sound that comes from older TV sets in both ears. That sound comes and goes too.
For the past few years I've had intermittent bouts of tinnitus which produced distinct tones or a feeling of internal ear "pressure" that have been very intense and lasted for days at a time. It's caused a lot of anxiety, and likely manifest itself in bouts of depression too.
So as you can see, Sky, you're not alone.
[EDIT] Two more things...
One thing that definitely exacerbates my tinnitus is lack of (or poor quality) sleep. After a day or two of little/poor sleep, a very loud ring will quite suddenly "swell up" in one ear. Sometimes it's so loud that it blocks the hearing in that ear. It's been known to last for several days too (most disconcerting), but more typically (and thankfully) the sound swells up, lasts for a minute, then fades away completely.
Caffiene may also play a role for me, though I love my coffee too much to experiment living without it!
Post Edited (2007-10-21 07:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jim S.
Date: 2007-10-21 19:34
I got mine, I believe, riding the Green Tortoise (an interurban bus with a high-pitched whining GM engine) from Seattle to the tip of Baja and back. Beware of old buses.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-10-23 19:20
I've had it since I was a very young child. I have learned to ignore it, but I also have some hearing loss as a result.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-10-24 04:27
My physician has suggested that minimizing one's salt intake reduces the severity of tinnitus symptoms. It definitely helps in my case. A nice, salty spaghetti sauce will bring my ears to life the next morning.
I'm not THAT kind of a doctor, but i think it's worth a try.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
