 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2007-10-16 05:55
On my Bb clarinet which is a few months old now, I have noticed and had it pointed out to me that the clarion A is a little flat - especially in comparison to the G and B surrounding it. I have to squeeze to bring the pitch up. I want to get an adjustment made to the tone hole (the 3rd finger tone hole) but don't know where I want the hole undercut more, or simply enlarge the hole a bit. Suggestions? Thanks
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2007-10-16 06:25
the problem is... i'll bet that the low register D below is on the sharp side?...
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-16 08:58
When making tone hole adjustments you must be aware if the other registers are also in or out of tune. I suggest you check the low D and high F# also.
Also be aware that raising the pitch of that A will raise the A# and B and C to some extent.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2007-10-16 09:01
I'm aware of all this and it doesn't concern me. The A is flat enough that it needs something done. I just want to know whether undercutting it the right option or enlarging the hole..
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-16 09:11
Please check the other notes, post the variance, so we can give you a better answer than what we are.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 2E
Date: 2007-10-16 10:54
Hey Nick,
That intonation book by Larry Guy in the con library explains the difference between each and what they result in. Maybe check that out and decide which ones more appropriate. In the mean time I'd check with Paul or Floyd, I'm sure they'd be able to offer some advice? I'd just be worried it'd throw out the 12th for other octaves too much.
On a completely unrelated note, check this out (a mate of ours.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-_PwhIEgBs
Toohey :P
Post Edited (2007-10-16 10:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Peter Spriggs
Date: 2007-10-16 11:32
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, IT WILL OBVIOUSLY AFFECT THE NOTE OF SAME FINGERING IN DIFFERENT REGISTERS. UNDERCUTTING FREES UP A NOTE, BUT DOES NOT CHANGE THE PITCH ALTHOUGH YOU MAY THINK IT DOES. THE WAY TO RAISE THE PITCH IS TO ENLARGE THE HOLE ONLY ON THE TOP END. THEREBY RAISING THE CENTER OF THE HOLE UP. iT IS WHERE THE CENTER OF THE HOLE IS THAT MATTERS! LIKEWISE, IF YOU NEED TO LOWER THE PITCH YOU WOULD ENLARGE THE HOLE AT THE BOTTOM END!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-10-16 15:01
My suggestion and advice is: A competent technician will know what to do and how to do it. Seek one out. (It may not be the tone hole you suspect, etc. ).
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Firebird
Date: 2007-10-16 15:39
I would prefer to live with the flat A and vent other holes to compensate for its tuning when holding the A.
Chan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-10-16 16:22
I concur with Peter Spriggs' advice: Enlarge the tonehole on its upper side (mouthpiece end).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan25
Date: 2007-10-16 16:51
"I concur with Peter Spriggs' advice: Enlarge the tonehole on its upper side (mouthpiece end)."
I've had it done on my horns and this is what needs to be done.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2007-10-16 19:19
look into the possibility of slightly lowering the B and G either side so that the three notes are closer in pitch, this may improve the situation and can be done by filling in holes or lowering the ring assembly slightly. Unlike carving wood out of your clarinet, it is also reversable.
dn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2007-10-16 21:11
Peter Spriggs wrote: UNDERCUTTING FREES UP A NOTE, BUT DOES NOT CHANGE THE PITCH ALTHOUGH YOU MAY THINK IT DOES
I had a low clarion F on my A clarinet. I sat with my technician while he gradually raise the tone hole (i.e. middle finger hole in the right hand). He would raise it slightly and I would check the pitch on a tuning machine, comparing to the other notes around it. It eventually came up to pitch. So I have to respectfully disagree with Mr Spriggs: undercutting can definitely bring up pitch!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-17 02:57
Peter Spriggs wrote -- "iT IS WHERE THE CENTER OF THE HOLE IS THAT MATTERS!
I have a question about that. If I were to put material on the lower half of the hole (bell side) then I would essentially be raising the center of the hole, right?? Would this also raise the pitch???
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-10-18 04:46
Yes, but you would also be reducing the cross-sectional area of the hole, possibly making the note stuffy --- unless you made the corresponding enlargement at the upper half as Peter suggested. And of course, because the tonehole chimneys are conical ('volcano'-shaped), whenever you enlarge a tonehole on one side only, you no longer have a flat upper surface for the pad to seat on -- so you must level the tonehole. And re-seat the pad afterwards.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-10-18 15:38
I'm with Donald - you can lower the B and the G by reducing the pad clearances on the pads immediately below them. The 'B' sounds through the little pad below the 1st finger, the 'G' through the first pad below the middle joint. These are linked by the long mechanism that crosses the joint. The limit on the opening of this mechanism will be some sort of stopper underneath the linkage near the joint. Shim this out (sticky tape will do for starters) and the B and G will become flatter. Push in a little and the top end of the instrument will become sharper as a whole.
I say this because my own instrument had a similar problem. The shim had collapsed slightly with age, throwing the tuning out of whack. Judicious application of tape brought it back.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan25
Date: 2007-10-18 15:58
I don't agree about lowering the the clarion B and G to match the clarion A. If the A is flat on a consistant basis, then why would you want more ptches to be flat. Instead of having 1 pitch that is a problem you now have 3. Good techs can fix the A to match the B and G.
In my opinion, it is better to have notes a bit on the high side than the low side. It's much easier to bring a pitch down while maintaining a good sound then it is to bring a pitch up. Biting will bring the pitch up on those pitches some but you will also have a tonal consistency problem. Also, the louder you play the flatter they will go which means the more you will have to bite and fight them. That is not a good recipie for good clarinet playing. Another problem, what do you do if you are playing in an orchestra that tunes to 441 or 442 and you make those pitches sound on the low side? Now you have to start messing with barrels and or mouthpieces. The only soloution that makes sense to me is to fix the A and leave everything else alone.
Post Edited (2007-10-18 19:44)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Pete
Date: 2007-10-18 20:04
Undercutting or enlarging the tone hole should not even be discussed with how little information you have given us. In any case, permanent alterations to the instrument should be last resort only.
What make and model of instrument is this? Some of the simple things that could be causing the problem is insufficient key heights. Or, a too soft pad that has bellied could be causing insufficient venting. Dirty tone holes, perhaps? You cannot see under the pads.
Until a competent tech has looked at the instrument, don’t even ask modification questions. Any modification like this will have some unintended consequences. Hopefully minor, but permanent none the less. If you or your repairman don’t understand that, all the more reason to not do it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2007-10-18 22:55
Pete - why would I not ask modification questions before I go and get it done? That doesn't make sense.
Anyhow, I have been to see a technician and he did a combination of a slight undercut and a slight opening up of the tone hole. It didn't take much at all, and the problem is now gone. No more flatness, and not too sharp either.
To answer Pete's questions, it is a 4 month old Festival, the key heights are all ok and checked regularly, the pads are new, and there are no dirty tone holes. I am very fussy about my instruments and check these things regularly.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 2E
Date: 2007-10-19 13:00
Did you watch Guy on youtube? lol show off. 2E.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 2E
Date: 2007-10-21 01:11
Should be at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-_PwhIEgBs
If not just do a search for "Spielman Concerto"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-10-21 17:03
Peter Spriggs wrote:
>"NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, IT WILL OBVIOUSLY AFFECT THE NOTE OF SAME FINGERING IN DIFFERENT REGISTERS. UNDERCUTTING FREES UP A NOTE, BUT DOES NOT CHANGE THE PITCH ALTHOUGH YOU MAY THINK IT DOES"<
That's WRONG! Undercutting a tone hole will definitely RAISE the pitch on a given note!
Peter Spriggs wrote:
>"iT IS WHERE THE CENTER OF THE HOLE IS THAT MATTERS!"<
The center of the hole has nothing to do with the pitch. Adding the material at the bottom of the tone hole will raise the center of it but will not raise the pitch on a given note. Most likely this type of action will make the tone stuffy for this note
Peter Spriggs wrote:
>"LIKEWISE, IF YOU NEED TO LOWER THE PITCH YOU WOULD ENLARGE THE HOLE AT THE BOTTOM END!"<
Nonsense! You have to do complete OPPOSITE. The critical area (center of the pitch) is the top side (the mouthpiece side) of the tone hole. If you move it UP, towards the mouthpiece the pitch will go up. If you move it down, towards the bell the pitch will go down. By enlarging the hole at the bottom end you most likely create unstable pitch or lose the focus of the pitch on a given note.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-10-21 17:45)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Pete
Date: 2007-10-22 21:49
Aussie Nick,
I am glad to hear that your clarinet has been taken care of to your satisfaction. I apologize that my original post was written quickly, and obviously I did not explain myself well.
My reasoning was not meant to have you not question modifying the instrument before it was done. Rather, it was to not consider modifying the instrument until we knew all other options had been depleted. Also, the comment about the dirty tone hole was not meant to question the care you take of your instrument. I have seen the most diligent players gasp when I remove a key to find a piece of lint or something in a tone hole that may have been there from someone swabbing it at the store before it was purchased.
Also, it should be realized, that rarely does a Buffet play more than about 90% as good as it could when it first comes from the factory. Usually, it’s only about 80% to 85%. This is not a knock to the instrument. They are fantastic! But face it, when they come down the assembly line, a lot of things go on that diminish from how good the instrument can be. Also, the set up work has to be pretty generic for the world market.
I often have customers bring brand new instruments into my shop for upgrades to the set up before the instrument is put into use. Some of the fine points that will be addressed are:
Balancing spring tensions
Replacing some or all of the pads with something flatter
Fine fitting of keys ( hey, the climate change can be pretty dramatic between parts of the U.S. and France)
Balancing the key heights
These are the sort of things I was looking for in my response. The reason I am so paranoid, is that there are way too many “cut and slash” repair people out there whose first response to problems seems to be modify, without regard to the down side. And there is always some sort of down side.
Hope this answers your question.
Pete
Emerson Musical Instrument Repair
North East Wisconsin Band Instrument Co.
ToneLure Tone Enhancement
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-23 00:57
From Vytas' post->Peter Spriggs wrote: ">"iT IS WHERE THE CENTER OF THE HOLE IS THAT >MATTERS!"<
Vytas' response- >The center of the hole has nothing to do with the pitch. Adding the >material at the bottom of the tone hole will raise the center of it but will >not raise the pitch on a given note. Most likely this type of action will make >the tone stuffy for this note"
--- In my personal experience, I have put material at the bottom of the hole to improve focus/center in that note. To be honest, I find that it also lowers the pitch a little (of course, less than putting material at the top side of the hole).
Post Edited (2007-10-25 15:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Mills
Date: 2007-10-23 23:22
So Nick; Look, you did not get enough informational replies. When you are playing the upper or lower end of the clarion register let the register key close for a moment while still holding up the clarion and SEE HOW FLAT THOSE NOTES GO. It will not effec the mid part. So you could shorten the register key hole's tube. Also be relieved that the clarion register sees the tone holes as being smaller than the low register does (so venting is more of a problem in the clarion register) so enlarging the hole has more affect on the clarion version of the same fingering.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-10-24 01:23
> "In my personal experience, I have put material at the bottom of the hole to improve focus/center in that note. To be honest, I find that it also lowers the pitch a little (of course, less than putting material at the top side of the hole)" <.
For more than a hundred years clarinet manufacturers knew/know how to calculate exact tone hole size/diameter for a given note. This size should not change when you add or remove material to the tone hole. In other words if you remove some material from the top you should add some material to the bottom of the tone hole to keep the original size in tact. If you enlarge the tone hole without doing so you will lose the focus of the pitch on a given note. If you add the material in the tone hole you will make the tone stuffy for this note. The rest is BS. Smaller tone holes will have more effect then the larger one etc...
skygardener, please do not put words in my mouth! I haven't written this: ">"iT IS WHERE THE CENTER OF THE HOLE IS THAT MATTERS!"<. This was Peter Spriggs quote and I clearly indicated that in my previous post.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-24 02:00
Vytas,
Sorry for the mistake. The correction has been made.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vytas wrote:
"For more than a hundred years clarinet manufacturers knew/know how to calculate exact tone hole size/diameter for a given note. This size should not change when you add or remove material to the tone hole. In other words if you remove some material from the top you should add some material to the bottom of the tone hole to keep the original size in tact."
What if a note lacks focus?? Or the scale is uneven?? Even though "clarinet manufacturers knew/know how to calculate exact tone hole size/diameter" the clarinet I may be working on might have high or low or stuffy or bright notes that don't match well with the notes around them. In some cases like this, it seems that changing the hole size (not just position) might be an option in fixing the problem. Do you disagree with this?
Post Edited (2007-10-24 12:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-10-24 12:29
skygardener wrote:
>"Do you disagree with this?"<
Yes, I do!
skygardener wrote:
>"What if....?"<
All your "IFs" should be and can be corrected with the procedure called voicing. The undercutting, tone hole enlargement, adding the material and relocation of the tone hole should be the last resort if the voicing fails.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-10-24 13:38
Okay. I should use voicing. I have heard this term refer to a few techniques by different people. Could you please explain what you mean by 'voicing'?
[Edit] Doing a search, I found very little information about "voicing" except the for essay by C. Fobes. "Voicing" changes the shape of the hole and can make it bigger or smaller. In MY brain, this falls into the category of "changing the size of the hole".
I am still unsure of what you mean by "voicing", perhaps I have been doing it the whole time and just using a different word than you.
Post Edited (2007-10-25 05:04)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
