 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ggcolosio
Date: 2007-09-30 02:36
HI I just got and a old wood clarinet from an estate sale from a lady who's father had passed away and he was 90 when He died. The mouthpiece says penzel meuller on it and the body has Haynes Schwelm Boston stamped into it on several places. The keys on it I believe are all silver. Does anyone have idea what this might be? thanks, Greg
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-09-30 13:55
Hi Greg - Welcome to our BBoard. Having made acquaintance with several [old] Penzel-Mueller clarinets [1900-? 1950?] , and mouthpieces, your question caught my attention. I use patent searching to "unearth" info which may never have made its way into our "good books" on clarinet. Recalling Wm S. Haynes' [shown as Calif.] "Thermoclarinet", I made a quick US Patent search via www.google/patents finding a JW and a WS patent and a 3rd in which a Haynes was cited as prior art. Other than that Wm's middle name began with S, I found no Schwelm patent mention related to clarinets, but many "fluid flow control" pats. I suggest you look at these patents, comparimg key structure shown with your cl. My thot is that you may have a quite unusual inst ! Also I have two P-M mouthpices, one of which is a very good player even by modern standards, SO, don't junk it just because of age !! H. Bettoney was the best known cl maker in Boston in this time period. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-09-30 13:57
I used to own a Haynes Schwelm flute. The Haynes flute company of Boston deny any connection to their company. It had soldered tone holes and I picked it up quite cheaply. I also sold it quite cheaply.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2007-09-30 13:58)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-09-30 15:08
TKS, Arnold, should have thot of a "musician relationship". Sch did not show up related to clarinet, woodwind, nor flute. Interesting, ?fun?, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ggcolosio
Date: 2007-09-30 20:03
Thank you Don, Im getting it out right now and I see a patent number but I need to get Magnifying Glass to see it, My Brother is a the piano player for Merle Haggard and He didn't know about woodwind instruments so I saw this board and thought I would ask. Ill check and look it up and Let you know what I find out, Thanks, Greg:)
Post Edited (2007-09-30 20:04)
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Author: ggcolosio
Date: 2007-09-30 20:29
HI Don, I got this number it said Pat. No. 1800590 and also it had the number 272 stamped on it also. All three sections are stamped Haynes schwelm Boston with the mouth piece stamped Artist Penzel Mueller Long Island city, I looked up this patent and I couldn't find anything. Thanks for any help you could give me, Greg
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-10-01 04:53
About a Haynes Schwelm tenor sax, a fellow on the Sax On The Web forum had this to say:
"these horns are not vintage
they are absolute junk- made in mexico and wouldn't even have scrap value"
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Author: ggcolosio
Date: 2007-10-01 06:15
The patent number is 180590 and was given on august first if 1876 To a Haynes S. Schwelm for a woodwind Clarinet. Serial number 272, And according to heritage auction where I sent photos it has a value of over 5,000.00. Thanks for your help, Greg
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-10-01 10:23
Greg -
Beware of that "heritage auction site." Nobody can evaluate anything just from a photo, and the $5,000 figure is insanely high. With an unfamiliar maker like Schwelm, you'll be lucky to get $500.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-10-01 13:30
Greg - I fail to find "your" patent, 180,590 comes up on Google as "Meal Bin", inventor Hunter, 1876 right, but in July. Did your "auction site" person give you this info? Also, Ken et al, when did serial numbering begin ? Is the cl's key system the modern Boehm, or the older Albert-Muller ?? IMHO, the info from Dave S suggests being very careful of a possible scam. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ggcolosio
Date: 2007-10-01 14:13
Don I was wrong the number is 180590 I put in 1 to many zeros. The schwelm came from John Schwelm as you know I'm sure was a worker for the Haynes Shop, However I am unable to find any history on this Clarinet. I have just begun to look a little more and I am taking it to a friend of my brothers who has a shop and all he does is reed instruments. what it looks like to me is that Haynes and this Haynes Schwelm were one until 1954 so I think It still would be considered a Haynes Clarinet. I my be wrong and I'm sure someone will tell me on here, I just am trying to find out about it, Thanks Greg:)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-10-01 15:51
Speculating ......it was a worker for Haynes flutes who left and opened a woodwind shop. The fact that the instruments were labelled with Haynes and Boston seems like they were trying to piggyback off the Haynes' name. Many flute companies in Boston did not treat their workers that well. The hiearchy was much more evident then as opposed to the modern day companies...Brannen, et al. Perhaps the information is available through Haynes today if you speak to the right person. I will make an inquiry through other sources.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-10-01 17:22
The genuine Haynes clarinets were made of silver, like their flutes. If the Haynes-Schwelm is wood or plastic, it's nothing like the real thing.
Haynes followed a Selmer design, and their clarinets had a typical Selmer sound. Also, the left hand little finger keys were quite short. Many years ago, I foolishly turned down a chance to buy one for a low price because I wasn't comfortable with the keywork.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-10-01 17:22
Also speculating, Arnold, there are several "numbering systems" associated with patents, there is an "Application" number [with date] assigned when the pat application is filed with the USPO, which repeats over the years, being "ranged" by being less than 1 million! This "mysterious number",180590, MIGHT be such, mis-interpreted by the maker as claiming some invention, the pat never issued. Yours and other explanations also come to mind. How 'bout dat? Don , OK, GBK ??
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ggcolosio
Date: 2007-10-01 22:08
HI guys, Greg again I have just sent photos and gotten off the phone with a Lady named Kerry Kearn with Christies auction and she is very sure I have something here. Thanks for the info
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