 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: butterflymusic
Date: 2007-09-22 01:31
Some of the comments in the recent post about the best clarinet to buy for marching band got me thinking. My college marching band had over 40 clarinets, and our music was scored so that clarinets were heard. (One of the directors did custom arrangements for us, which was so cool! But that's another story for another thread...) This was back in the early 80's. In contrast, my daughter's high school band has followed the drum corp trend and there's talk of clarinets/flutes being eliminated altogether from marching band. I enjoy their performances and they do well in local competitions but I am disturbed by this news. We live in So Cal and I'm interested in hearing from you - is this going on elsewhere in the country too?
Beverly
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-09-22 01:42
Clarinets are an important part of marching bands where I live (Texas).
Marching is big business around here.
One local band has a clarinet duet written into the part (amplified, they march over to the sideline and play into microphones).
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Chauncey
Date: 2007-09-22 02:13
Based on my experience and opinions, I believe that the clarinet is a useless addition to the marching band. For some amplified solos I guess it seems reasonable enough for a single player or two to be present on a song, but I see no sense in clarinets in a marching band for the most part.
Make 'em learn tuba.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-09-22 02:50
Clarinet has trouble projecting in the field. Timid clarinetists add significantly to this effect. I haven't listened to marching bands in years, but I imagine they might be a case of "you don't notice when they're there, but it's different when they're gone." Like violas in an orchestra :P
Why are they really there? Maybe to ensure you have clarinets for concert season. Maybe out of habit. Maybe for parade season, when you *can* hear them.
Amplification I find to be a copout... imho, it doesn't belong in marching situations. My sophomore year of HS, our clarinet section leader played in an unamplified dixieland-style quartet in the middle of one piece.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-22 11:35
Clarinets, sometimes in unison with the lower brass (tenor horns and euphoniums) and saxes playing quietly, usually carry the tune in the quieter Trio sections (with the obbligato piccolo bit) which contrast to the louder A section where the cornets are usually giving it welly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-09-22 11:50
I am also of the opinion that clarinets are passe' in marching bands and the same goes for saxes. The only reason they remain is because band directors have no clue what to do with them if they don't participate. And if they don't participate they might just drop out of the band altogether. Perhaps if these members could learn bagpipe that could be a solution.
Bob Draznik
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-09-22 13:41
Not much different than the so-called concert band, which in many instances is becoming more a brass band. The high point for clarinets was probably reached in Sousa"s final band, about 26 clarinets in a total 70 piece band. But then the music required it. Also, now amplification permits as few as one on a part, as ,I'm guessing, was the case in Fennell's great Eastman band. For marching brass can do the job while we relax.
richard smith
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Author: Robyn_765
Date: 2007-09-22 13:58
It's been several years since I was in marching band, but our music seemed to always allow woodwinds to shine. Maybe it is not as important for Friday night football games where most fan in the stands are just waiting for the band to finish so the game can restart, but my school took marching competitions seriously. I don't think you can achieve that total balanced sound without woodwinds to balance out the brass. My opinion, naturally. Even if they don't scream out, "Here are the clarinets", their sound adds to the total sound, and it just wouldn't be the same without them (or flutes or saxes, etc.).
-- Robyn
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Author: marzi
Date: 2007-09-22 15:09
They're only there to make the formations? of course if its very foggy, who can see the formations when you can't even see more than a couple of people down the line! oh what fun it was, we were so cold who could play anyway...
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Author: blazian
Date: 2007-09-23 00:25
I agree with Robyn. Our show last year featured the woodwind section repeatedly. We already outplayed the brass anyway. Not all saxes are soft players though. The alto sax often (at least in MY school) covers up the incompetency of out mellophone section using only 3 people. My director complains that our 2 tenors play too loud and cover up all 8 of our trombones (yeah, small band) So, if you stick an alto clarinet bell on the bottom of a clarinet (mine fits perfectly) and use a really open mouthpiece, your band director will probably complain that you're playing too loud. Just make shure that you don't squeak.
During concert season bass clarinets are essential. I bet most high school bands couldn't play Tempered Steel with just brass. The tubas might not be able to handle the fast low notes and the trumpet section would have trouble with the clarinet notes.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2007-09-24 03:10
They just give a marching band a texture that differentiates them from a drum corps. Our shows are always very clarinet-heavy in some parts.
Also...a highschool clarinetist can play a hell of a lot faster than a highschool trumpet player. Our show last year had a 16th note run at 160bpm (probably more like 180 once you take the adrenaline generated by the performance aspect into consideration). Granted...it wasn't hard (moving up and down a G melodic minor scale)...but that's still something that will dissapear if you remove clarinets and flutes.
Drum corps don't have to worry about that because for the most part they're using college-aged and advanced-highschool marchers who can handle that aspect of music (if you ever watch Cavis 2005 on the first hold, you'll know what I mean). Most highschool bands don't have that privilege of highschool trumpet players who can play 16th notes like that.
If you want to see what I mean...go to youtube and search 'an american in paris portage northern'. You should only get one hit...it's a marching band show. 7:35ish...show that to the directors and it will change their minds about the removal of woodwinds. It's just small things like that that are the reason you need woodwinds, even in marching band.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-09-24 11:13
marshall wrote:
> It's just small things like that that are the reason
> you need woodwinds, even in marching band.
The real question is - why do you need marching band, never mind the woodwinds?
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-09-24 13:01
Marching bands serve a vital purpose...
They form a connection between the normal specimens and behemoths on the field - when a school is historically invested in the idea of the spectacle, it is a way for all to feel involved.
Personally, it all sounds the same to me - all brass and blare.
There must be some community wind ensemble better served by clarinets...
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-09-24 13:23
OK, I am a high school band director, and in addition to 3 concert and 2 jazz ensembles, we also have a marching band. It's not a huge priority in my program - we aim to entertain at football games, not compete. Here's my take (for what it's worth):
Marching Band does fill a need - a need of the community and school. Now, personally I'm not a big marching band guy. If I got a job where marching band was not required, I would celebrate. But for this job and this community, it is an essential part of what we do, and it serves an important function to the band and community.
It's the only time when our average incoming freshmen get to stand next to our most accomplished seniors. That's kind of a big deal. They look up to their section leaders, and it not only gets them into marching band, but into band in general. Our feeders are not very good, and for an incoming freshman to be part of a big, full sounding band is a very powerful tool for keeping them in band - they're excited about music and want to move up and become leaders. For reasons of morale and camaraderie, I would not give up marching band, even though, as I said, we don't compete. We work on concert literature during the day, and for 2 nights per week, we try to learn good sounding and good looking shows to entertain our fans. Our crowd loves the band, and we almost always get standing ovations (which also motivates the freshmen to stay in band - kids love applause).
As for clarinets/flutes. They are important for visual effect, and occasionally during quiet passages, they can be heard and have important lines. Saxophones are generally heard, at least in my band
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Author: Ed Granger
Date: 2007-09-24 17:05
I'm curious, does anyone feel that the existence of marching band helps to justify and generate support for the continued existence of and funding for music programs in general?
Ed
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Author: beantown_Bb
Date: 2007-09-24 17:37
In the interest of full disclosure:
* clarinet player (obviously!)
* former member of very large and fairly well-known college marching band (and high school before that, naturally)
I have two comments to add. Sorry in advance for my snideness regarding the football players and their fans and families. : )
1. My first comment relates to whether marching band perhaps contributes to continued funding of music programs. I believe that it does. It is one of --if not THE-- only opportunities for the "great unwashed masses" to view what the music program is doing. So, if Papa Meathead enjoys shedding a tear and hearing the marching band play the school song after Meathead Jr. scores the big touchdown and is whisked away on the shoulders of his teammates, then Papa Meathead is that much more likely to oppose cutting the music program -- even if the reasons may be suspect. At my high school, having the support of the athletic department and the gridiron parents/boosters more than quintupled the number of people (vs. band parents only) that you knew you could automatically count on when the budget discussion time rolled around each year. Sports makes for strange bedfellows, I guess, but if it helps keep the music program funded, I'll take it!
2. Secondly, as for whether clarinets and the other woodwinds "belong" in the marching band: OF COURSE THEY DO!
I think that if the woodwinds can't be heard during an entire halftime program, then the music director needs to seriously re-consider the contents of the program. While a show comprised of nothing but trumpet-based blastissimo is probably fairly easy to pull together in a pinch, it does nothing for the students except promote bad intonation and balance. A show that incorporates one or two pieces that feature the woodwinds helps teach ALL band members to balance their sound appropriately. It can also add a lot of drama to the show (from the audience's point of view), so the WWs certainly play an important role there, too.
P.S. I can almost HEAR some of you snickering at the very thought that musicality and marching band could possibly go together. I assure you, though, that they can. Just because you don't commonly find it, doesn't mean it does not exist! A proper blend of musicality and the entertainment factor is a lofty and worthwhile goal, IMHO.
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Author: george
Date: 2007-09-24 18:22
So far essentially all the posts to this thread seem to assume only high schools and colleges have marching bands. Does anyone have anything to say about the military bands? They do march.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-09-24 18:29
Marching band is to music as television "wrestling" is to sports.
Both venues are scripted events, with carefully choreographed movements, that produce very predictable mediocre results which is passed off to a gullible audience as entertainment.
That saddest part...people pay good money to attend and support both events.
...and let's not even begin to assess the damage to a high school concert band program after initially "writing off" the first 3 months of the school year, and then taking valuable time away for having to "undo" the fine tonality that was achieved by playing FFF for 12 weeks...GBK (former HS band director)
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-09-24 18:44
GBK,
I don't know how long ago you were a HS band director, but none of the bands I know play FFF for 12 weeks. Do you think it's not possible to teach students to play that music in tune, and in proper balance, with good sound fundamentals? Some of us directors actually strive for that, and refuse to "write off" the first 3 months. Marching Band can be a good additional to a total music program if it is well-conceived and executed. Of course there are bands that don't see the point of playing in tune or in balance (sounds like your band was one of them), but don't condemn all marching bands under the assumption that the directors don't care about the quality of the music produced for the first 12 weeks of the year. A few decades ago, most jazz bands were trying to play louder, faster, higher. There was nothing wrong with jazz band then, just the way it was taught in some places. The same holds true for marching band.
When I said that flutes and clarinets are rarely heard in the football field, it's because of the way they project sound outdoors - much differently than brass do. I can hear them fine in the rehearsal room, and we work for proper balance,even though we may not get it on the field. I wouldn't let my marching band blast any more than I would let my concert band blast.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-09-24 18:55
george wrote:
> Does anyone
> have anything to say about the military bands? They do march.
george,
In my 6 years in the military I sometimes marched to the band's music, but not once did I see the band march while playing. The band would march in, start playing, stop playing, and march out.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-09-24 19:08
As we've said here many times:
"...Marching band is NOT part of a music education. It is a great after-school activity for those that want to, but it is a horrid waste of taxpayer dollars when it's part of a curriculum that purports to be about music.
Marching band is a great form of entertainment for parades and (US style) football games. Sometimes it's great choreography, too. It lets you play your instruments while walking in a very structured manner.
Notice I said nothing about music ..."
I'm guessing that the people who vehemently support and enjoy watching (you notice I didn't say "listening") to marching bands are the same people who find a painting of "Dogs Playing Poker" to be high quality art.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students leadership and responsibility.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to work with others.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to turn a phrase.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play in-tune.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play with a good sound.
Students can get all of these things and more from a well run music education program...even a program without a marching band.
BTW - My high school marching band "won" more than our share of trophys. It made the school administration/school board happy but the underlying damage done each year to our regular concert band and orchestra program was severe...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-09-24 19:52
It always comes down to the members of a band who are there for the social aspect and fund raising - that's Marching Band and those who are mainly there to get really good at their instrument and play music which is representative of the great heritage of Concert Band Music.
Typically the rare student is there for both, but not very often.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-09-24 20:18
Many students are simply in marching band for the social aspects. Most of the rest are there because they have no choice if they want to be in band the whole year.
At least in my daughter's band, the HS marching band consists of all three bands (Concert, Symphony and Wind Ensemble) during the football season. Each band has its own rehearsal time, where they actually play real music, and they have a week of intensive practice just before school begins, so they can learn the marching show. But they still have to give up some outside time to practice the marching shows, time which could be spent better on serious practice, or completing demanding homework assignments in academic subjects.
The serious musicians in the group suffer through the waste of time that it is to march, because they realize that it is in their director's contract that they have to sit through every home game of watching the football team lose most of its games. That doesn't mean that they enjoy the *musical* (he said that last part jokingly!) part of marching band, but that they can at least have some fun being with some of the other kids in the school on a Friday night.
My daughter is actually basing part of her choice for a music college on finding programs where music majors ARE NOT REQUIRED to be in the college's marching band. Why spend all that time (and money for new instruments and lessons) just to defeat it all by playing on plastic horns out on the field, where there is little hope of any musical benefit to the students?
Sure athletics are a big part of a school's image. In our district, they seem to have corrupted Winston Churchill's philosophy to read: "MILLIONS for sports, but not a penny for the Arts!"
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2007-09-24 23:01)
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Author: george
Date: 2007-09-24 21:41
Mark,
My military service was so long ago that I cannot remember with certainty whether or not I ever heard an Army band play and march at the same time, but I do remember seeing (and hearing) some Army band march and play simultaneously in this year's 4th of July parade here in Atlanta. From reading all these comments, I'm not sure whether this was a good thing or a bad thing. Sounded okay....
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-09-24 21:57
GBK wrote:
"- You don't need marching band to teach music students leadership and responsibility.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to work with others.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to turn a phrase.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play in-tune.
- You don't need marching band to teach music students how to play with a good sound."
No, you don't need marching band to teach those things, but you CAN teach those things in marching band, too. That's where we disagree. I have no desire (or ability) to change your mind. I also don't have any quarrel with anyone who doesn't like a particular marching program, or the way it's taught. I just think it's outrageous to lump all marching programs together, and to speak with certainty about what is happening to MY students during the first 12 weeks of the year.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2007-09-24 22:13
I enjoyed my marching band experiences but was always glad when it was over so my ears and my tone could recover.
I only carry a small group of students (my kids are school aged and I don't want to teach all my after school hours) so my sample is small, but the two reasons my students have pulled out of their school band programs are
1) academic demands/ lack of available electives
2) The student does not want to march.
Frankly #2 really bothers me. I don't like to see a kid quit band because the system will not accommodate the students who are serious enough about music to take private lessons but who are not interested in the marching scene.
Barb
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-09-24 22:53
The problem with Marching Band for the serious players who want to audition for Regional/State Band is that their practice time is taken up with Marching rehearsal.
I have students who have marching band practice 4 nights a week!! It's almost impossible to devote serious practice time with that activity happening.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-09-24 22:53
george wrote:
> Mark,
>
> My military service was so long ago that I cannot remember with
> certainty whether or not I ever heard an Army band play and
> march at the same time,
Hey, my service started only 35 years ago ...
> but I do remember seeing (and hearing)
> some Army band march and play simultaneously in this year's 4th
> of July parade here in Atlanta.
I'll exclude parades - a few bands participate in those I'm sure. I don't go to parades much ...
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Author: Robyn_765
Date: 2007-09-25 13:14
I had the choice to join the "orchestra" instead of "band" to avoid marching, but in our school woodwinds were not appreciated in the orchestra and I would assume strings wouldn't have been appreciated in the band. It is a shame that most students don't have a choice but to march if they want to be in band.
-- Robyn
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2007-09-25 14:29
I played clarinet in junior high and marched in the band under the direction of Mister Roger Brendle. The highlight of my marching career was representing Barr Junior High in the Harvest of Harmony Parade in Grand Island, Nebraska. All band members met afterwards at the the local German club downtown for a free ice cream bar.
My marching skills learned in the 7th grade helped me march mostly in step during Officer Training School.
Many parades later, mostly as a spectator, I can always hear the clarinets.
Mary Jo
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Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-09-25 18:32
My grandson who is a sophomore in high school here in Edmond, OK is in marching band, the school orchestra, show choir and drama. His main thing is music and he loves it all. He plays Trombone, but don't hold that against him. :-) He is at school at 6:30am and does practice later at home for orchestra. It looks as if he is going to take 1st chair this year in the school orchestra. He is just an ordinary kid, and has to work at it. He is not a fanatic or anything, and has great parental support. What I see at the games are a lot of kids having a great time, and very proud of their skills marching. (They could sure take some lessons on taking care of their instruments though). They are all seem to be quality kids. They have good support from the community and they do a lot of fundraisers. It does take a lot of work and sure keeps them out of trouble.
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Author: Jude
Date: 2007-09-27 11:49
I recently joined a band linked to one of the public services in the UK that marches as well as putting on 'concert' performances. I've found that sometimes a march may not be the most musical of performances - its the spectacle that gets most attention. But that could equally be true of any venue where the audience expect a certain type of performance - imagine the contrast of the church venue with a club where alcohol is involved in copious amounts and you know what I mean.
Our band do play while we march, and I never before realised how difficult this is to do! Although keeping in step and in time is very easy unless you are trying to change piece and negociate pot-holes in the road at the same time! Oops!
As for whether clarinets are necessary or not, surely this is down to the arrangements being used. There would be something seriously missing in our band's performance if no clarinets were present (or any of the other sections for that matter.) I'm sure we can all be heard and collectively make a reasonable job of it.
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Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2007-09-28 16:42
In my opinion, an outdoor band looses presence without woodwinds, particularly flutes and clarinets. A good example is Civil War era band music, most of which was written for German style brass bands. It’s neat, but gets old quickly. In contrast the Port Royal Army Band included woodwinds. The music written for that band blows away the brass only stuff, even outdoors on football fields (for instance the Washington Grays, by Grafulla). Of course, there are very few high school bands that could hold a candle to the Port Royal Band.
As a former HS band marcher, I can say that we had a lot of fun, even if it wasn’t very musical. We played at home and away, Veterans Day Parades, Christmas Parades and Band Day at UVA. We didn’t have many after school practices, and we didn’t do marching competitions. One thing our director did was to have us play concert music once or twice a week to keep us a little musical and out of the FFF dynamic habit. Our director probably wasn’t real keen on football season, but the kids were. Even though our team was lousy, playing at the games was an event not to be missed.
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Author: SavvyClarinet
Date: 2007-10-01 20:56
Let's just say I am counting down the days until concert season starts. At our school, you are required to be in marching band to be in concert band, and the clarinets in marching band are a joke. Few take it seriously, and nobody practices their music, so only a handful can play more than 2 scales. Many who say they love it take the marching aspect more seriously and completely disregard the music, opting instead to march and not play. They feel there is no point in playing because they won't be heard over the brass, and none project. I know I only have experience in one marching band, but I completely loathe it. In my situation, it encourages bad technique, because the few that play in my section have to spread their sound to be heard, and the bouncing around is not good for embouchures. In my opinion, all the practice time takes away from practicing quality music at home.
Maybe it's me personally, but I think marching band is too impersonal, whereas concert bands allow names to be associated with faces and instruments.
Only five more weeks!
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Author: MaroonAlto
Date: 2007-10-01 21:42
Where I am the Clarinets are the best section in the band...going away. Let's not lump all programs together and can we assume that all Band Directors have good intentions? I feel as though all Band Directors are being attacked as if they're bad people. Some programs are good, some are not. All those kids are working hard...can we respect their work ethic?
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Author: ned
Date: 2007-10-02 05:48
''In my 6 years in the military I sometimes marched to the band's music, but not once did I see the band march while playing. The band would march in, start playing, stop playing, and march out.''
I played in a type of marching band when I was conscripted. It was a pipe and drum band and we played and marched (quite frequently) and we stood still and played (quite frequently) - once for a visiting Princess Anne actually. I guess we weren't too bad.
My point though is the definition depends on the placement or emphasis on the word 'marching'.
A band marching and playing is definitely a marching band.
A band marching and not playing is still a marching band.
A band standing still and playing, for ''marchers', is still a marching band.
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Author: davidsampson
Date: 2007-10-03 00:07
My school stresses both marching and concert. Marching is a lot of fun for me, but as it is not fun for everyone (or they don't have the time, etc) you are not required to march to be in one of the concert bands. For those that do march, musicality is emphasized very much. More than half of our practice concerns dynamics, articulation, and tone production.
Clarinets (and flutes and saxes) have their place in marching band. This years show consists of 2 movements from Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade, as well as Dmitri Shostakovitch's Fire of Eternal Glory. In both of these pieces there are prominent woodwind parts. This is odd, considering that our show is ripped from DCI (Santa Clara Vanguard did Scheherazade, and Phantom Regiment did Fire in '93)
I don't know about trumpets, but mellophones can certainly play fast sixteenths at 180 bpm. At the end of the last movement of Scheherazade, there are several measures of slurred sixteenth runs, played by mellophones and woodwinds. Our mellophones can play them all very well, as our directors listened to each player individually to make sure.
We have a very good marching band ( just came out of a grand championship at a competition in tennessee, and a second place showing at one in alabama) and we have very good concert bands. Our top band, Symphonic I band, won the Grand National Adjudicators Invitational at the Dixie Classic last year. First semester emphasizes marching, with the period of time after football season and before christmas being spent working on our concert technique. All year round, it is not uncommon to warm up 40-45 minutes out of a 50 minute class period, much of this spent on scales, tuning intervals, and tone production. My directors have done this for years, and it has never failed us.
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