 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2007-09-11 13:27
Ok so for the past 5 or 6 years I have been playing with a plastic bit over my bottom front teeth which I had specially made and fitted to my teeth - it's a clear plastic material orthodontists use. I don't bite anywhere near as much as I used to but I think there is still room to move in the way of biting less. I want to stop using the teeth guard for a couple of reasons. 1: Because I'm worried that if I ever lose it and need to perform suddenly without it, it would be really difficult. 2: I think using it makes me bite slightly more (without realising) than I would if I wasn't using it...if that makes sense?
Anyway today for the first time I tried practicing without the plastic and it was difficult. I got a sore lip fairly quickly and I can't get notes like altissimo A and above without really hurting. Is it possible to maybe have the sharpness of the bottom teeth taken away? Or will I get used to it after a few days? Do many other play with someone on the teeth?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-09-11 13:36
Give it time - you don't need to be able to play A except for very few pieces and unless you have something coming up immediately you can give it some time to adjust to the new "no biting" way of playing.
Having anything on your teeth means that you most likely do bite the reed. I used to do that in High School and played with a plastic cover on my bottom teeth. Gigliotti broke me of that bad habit.
Your callous will build up - give it time.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2007-09-11 13:46
I noticed a certain something in the sound today which I preferred to when I would use my teeth guard... and somehow it was easier to get a clean articulation on the first group of semiquavers I would play.
I have an audition in a week from now and have to decide what is best for then.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-09-11 14:52
I have very sharp edges exposed on my lower teeth --after having the lower arch collapse after having things all straightened up --when my wisdom teeth came in and pushed everything around.
Years ago, I molded a thin piece of mylar drafting film to fit, and used that for years. It has shrunk, exposing some lateral edges and is no longer useful.
If I keep up my practice, I can keep my lower lip callused, and be ok. If travel or other interference causes me to be off the horn for a few days, my lower lip heals, and I've got a problem --cut lip. This happened to me after ClarinetFest this year and slowed me down for several weeks.
SO, unlike Nick, I've just had a tooth protector made. It sounds much like Nick's --a thin bit of plastic made like an orthodontic retainer. In my case, the dentist kept the cast of my lower teeth and can make me another protector in a few hours.
It is pretty wonderful. It definitely calls for an embouchure change. I have to lower my jaw a bit.
BUT, it seems to relieve my (previously not recognized) anxiety over protecting my lip and allows me a hugely better sound! I'm able to use more lower lip tension (not biting, but stretching the flesh harder over the lower teeth.
I'll get another, spare cover and exploit this newfound freedom.
OH, David, I'd tend to agree with you that cut lips mean biting; but my teeth are so sharp that it doesn't take much pressure to cut into my lip.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-09-11 17:31
Nick,
I believe that there is a benefit to playing without the teeth guard (IF you are playing without biting).
But if you're going to take an audition in a week then don't change anything until AFTER the auditon!!
I just stopped playing with a teeth guard (multiple folds of cigarette paper reused over and over) and have experienced a great deal of improvement in articulation (and a tiny bit in sound)...
...by changing to the double lip embouchure.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-09-11 18:24
I have especially sharp bottom teeth because I have one tooth in the middle as opposed to the usual two. I have a tooth guard like yours but almsot never use it. Actually the only time I used it is for a piece I had to hold a low D on bass clarinet for probably over 7 minutes (blood on the reed isn't nice). I think just play with whatever is more comfortable. Many people confuse change with better so make sure you do actually have advantage without the guard before you decide. Maybe you can practice both ways and learn to bute less with the guard, and start without altisimo at first.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-09-11 18:40
If you think you need a plastic lip protector:
Talk to your dentist about smoothing the tops of your lower front teeth; not a big deal, painless, and has done wonders for some of my students/colleagues.
Try playing at a smaller angle between your body and the clarinet. When the reed is pressing against the flat of your teeth instead of the "cutting edge" you are less likely to cause a contusion of the lower lip. This also helps cure the cardinal sin of biting too hard -- the, now, indirect pressure of your jaw is less likely to choke your reed to death!
Use more air! Too many players substitute jaw pressure for air support.
IMHO way too many players use lip (not tooth!) protectors to compensate for more serious problems with their embouchure. Given sound teaching I think there are really very few players that actually need the damn things!
Post Edited (2007-09-12 17:59)
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Author: ashemas
Date: 2007-09-11 19:36
I have to agree with Tobin on this one...double lip for me did wonders. My freshman year I had biting problems, and halfway through the year I decided to try switching to double lip. Granted, it took me some time to get the hang of it, but I was getting a better sound, and articulation became a cinch for me. Not to mention, my lips were no longer sore. It's also a great endurance builder...I play double lip for 30 min. when I warm up each day.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-09-12 03:34
I'm astonished nobody's mentioned cigarette papers yet. Get a pack, take one paper, fold it so it's approximately 3/4-inch by 3/4 inch, wet it, drape it over bottom teeth, insert instrument, and voila! I've used them for years, and the only problem is a quick change to flute, if you're doubling, in which case you want the thing OUT of your mouth fast.
I had a dentist smooth my lower teeth, but it didn't help. I had him make me one of them tooth-protector things, but it was too thick, and the plastic changed dimensions over time anyhow, so it no longer fit. I need to use something, because if I abrade the inside of my lip on my lower teeth, it generally turns into a cold sore. The papers work fine for me. If you don't get enough padding with a single paper, they come double-wide too.
I studied with a guy once who used band-aids, ingeniously folded, but I could never figure out how he did it.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-12 03:46
David Blumberg- "I was telling Gigliotti about me having my teeth ground down a bit when I was in 8th grade and he showed me his extremely crooked bottom teeth."
The problem is not in the straightness or crookedness of your teeth so much as it is in the sharpness. I have rather straight teeth- not perfect, but if I didn't point out the very slightly crooked teeth you would not notice them. However, I often use somthing over my teeth to protect my lip because my teeth are so sharp. Most people would say "well, everyone's teeth are sharp, right? Isn't that the point of teeth... so they can cut through the food we eat?" Well, no. I was being told by my teacher in college not to use any cover on my teeth, and we got to a point in the conversation where my teacher was rubbing my teeth with their finger and then rubbing their teeth with their finger. Almost instantly, my teacher said, "Oh, that really is sharp! Better use the paper."
Still, I do go through periods of using and not using protectors.
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Author: Neal Raskin
Date: 2007-09-12 04:49
I am also a fan of cigarette papers. I have been using them for about 2 years, and it has helped my tone out a ton. the nice thing for me was, after i got used to folding them in a way that wouldn't feel weird, they had virtually no ill effects on my articulation.
I also play the Eb a lot in my College band and College Concert orchestra (that's right...Mahler 1 baby!), and if i do not use the papers my lip will be in a lot of pain, and maybe even break the skin. So I find them extremely helpful when playing the eefer.
The best thing about the papers, is that they take up almost no space in your mouth. where as denture pads, little plastic molds and such might get bulky and mess with articulation. and I don't feel that I am sacrificing any aspect of my playing by using them.
Try them out, its cheap, and it works for a lot of people.
good luck
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-12 11:42
No insults intended, but it seems Giggliotti thought it was related to the straightness. Incidentally, I took a lesson once in which the teacher mentioned the thin leather I was using and showed me his crooked teeth to prove that it wasn't needed. I looked closely and found no sharp edge that could've caused any damage.
It's like anything. Some players that have never had finger/wrist pain can't realise just how neccessary neckstraps can be for those that need it.
-Edited for bad initial phrasing. I have never had a lesson with Gigglotti.
Post Edited (2007-09-12 12:53)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-12 15:16
On the subject... I know a oboist that has a full time position in a very good orchestra that uses paper on the top and bottom teeth!
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-09-12 17:27
I use E-zo, a denture cushion. Buy a box and cut them into small pieces to fit over the bottom teeth. Rub it in your hands til it is soft and pliable, then shape into place. They're cheap, and a box lasts over a year if you use each piece til it is no longer functional. I think I have pretty sharp teeth, too. In grad school I was starting to notice more lip pain because of the increased practice time. It was a freshman who introduced me to E-zo. Took time to get used to it, but I like it now. I don't want to use cig. papers because I am anti-cig. anything.
Clarnibass, was that piece Alfred Reed's "Immovable Do"?
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-09-12 19:36
hello guys.
not that im any kind of expert in these kind of things.
but isnt the real problem spelled BAD airsupport??
with a really good airstream the playing will be VERY free and there is nearly no pressure on the teeth at all!!
i have one of those plastic covers to! somewhere...
i made it because i had very sharp teeth to. or so my old teacher said. after a couple of hours playing my lip was unplayable sore(sp?)!!!
but now, after working for hours and hours a day with proper airsupport, when i have a good day i can play for about 7-8 hours!!
and the reason that i cant play any more is that i get unfocused or they lock up the practicerooms, it have nothing to do with any kind of pain. :P
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-09-12 22:10
People play badly for various reasons; the most common one is failure to judge what they currently produce as inadequate.
Even if what a player produces is adequate to begin with, in the absence of correction of their playing by their LISTENING, it will drift towards inadequacy.
For example, people who are profoundly deaf don't speak well, not because they cannot, but because they have no mechanism to correct the drift away from comprehensible speech.
The whole business of 'biting' is bedevilled by lack of appreciation of this fundamental truth, in the following way.
'Biting' is almost never defined. But consider the following statement: "the different baseline pressure of the lip against the reed required by different types of mouthpiece/reed setup HAS to involve different baseline pressure of the lower lip against the lower teeth".
('Baseline pressure' here means the pressure that is modulated by changes in flexion of the lower lip; so an 'open' setup requires more baseline pressure than a 'close' one.)
This sounds innocuous, but consider: it is a simple consequence of elementary statics that 'pressure of the lower lip against the lower teeth' is equal (and opposite) to 'pressure of the lower teeth against the lower lip'. So the 'innocuous' statement is equivalent to: "the different baseline pressure of the lip against the reed required by different types of mouthpiece/reed setup HAS to involve different baseline pressure of the lower teeth against the lower lip" -- ie, varying degrees of 'biting', in most people's understanding.
But what is 'wrong' is not, 'biting'. What is wrong is failure to CONNECT the baseline pressure BETWEEN the lower lip and the lower teeth WITH THE MUSICAL RESULT in real time.
Too much baseline pressure can turn out to be 'wrong' in this sense. But, so can TOO LITTLE baseline pressure.
And more importantly, what is UNDOUBTEDLY WRONG is to think that there can be a wrong or right INDEPENDENT OF THE RESULT.
The connection with whether or not you are 'permitted' to use a lower teeth shield is obvious.
Tony
Post Edited (2007-09-12 22:12)
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Author: runner
Date: 2007-09-13 01:14
I have a different problem. I was born with two baby teeth with no roots. They are my bottom two teeth where I position my clarinet. I have thought about getting a bridge to even out my teeth and(possibly) improve my sound. My dentist doesn't know if he can guarantee success. I am probably the only living clarinetist playing with baby teeth. Anyone out htere with my problem? Any suggestions? I'm a freak.
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Author: martind
Date: 2007-09-13 02:20
For what it's worth, I use cloth tape to cover my lower sharp front teeth.
Cut a three inch piece, fold over the two sticky sides and trim to an oval shape. The cloth will absorb the moisture and form over the teeth. When you remove it carefully, the cloth pad will have the exact shape of your
lower teeth. Let it dry and reuse it. It will surely outlast the cig/paper
model and is much thinner than the plastice dental models.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-13 06:16
I am using the Bay "Lip-ease" product. Anyone else use this? It works well and feels good, but my teeth actually cut through it unless I layer it several times.
I used to use paper, but sometimes it would very seldomly move or fold over on itself during practice and that is a risk that I didn't want to take on a performance. So I am going with the disposable, non-moving product for now.
I used to use thin sheep skin or pig skin until I found out that it is treated with some toxic stuff in production. It's safe to touch, but it's not something you want to suck on for long periods of time.
Post Edited (2007-09-13 11:36)
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Author: denner22
Date: 2007-09-13 09:56
I have had students use cigarette paper with a lot of success when they get orthodontic braces. However long term, it has generally been a problem that disappears with a well-formed embouchure - guided by a desire for a well rounded and projected sound supported by good air stream.
I would recommend trying double lip embouchure to remedy any feeling of too much embouchure pressure.
I also wonder if you are trying to do too much with the embouchure and ignoring a possible problem with empowering the sound with good and unobstructed air stream.
Don't do any of this before an audition!
David
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-09-13 10:09
Amen David!
Glad to hear someone echoing my thoughts...
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-13 11:33
My teeth are just sharp. My teeth even feel sharp if I rub my tongue on them. My air support, and all that is fine. If you saw the edges of my teeth you would understand.
Basically I am a good candidate to have the sharpness rounded off by a dentist.
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-09-13 21:43
Well here is an angle that has not been covered: I recently was fitted with Invisalign, a clear plastic tray that fits over both top and bottom that works the same way traditional braces do but with no one able to see them. Google it if you are curious. Anyway...I got them the other day, and I find that playing is no problem at all. Actually, it feels a lot like a double lip emboucher. At first I thought I was doing a double lip! I feel the sound is fine and will take some getting used to. For any of you considering the invisalign, I say go for it.
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-09-13 22:14
I also use the cloth tape, but with less trimming than previously mentioned. I think I read in a thread here somewhere that Leister uses a piece of thin leather. I started using the tape years ago when I had orthonotic work done on my teeth and the braces could rip my lip to shreads. I never stopped using it and I do practice double lip fairly often so I think that nobody has mentioned that although the protector might allow you to bite a bit more, it doesn't mean that you have to.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-09-14 05:53
isn't the idéa with playing clarinet, or any woodwind, that is as suppose to be as easy as possible?
using an equipment that force you to bite to get a good sound doesn't sound like a very good solution to me! i think that if one uses the "easy as possible" rule, there is only one proper setup regarding mpc vs reed!!
hum, maybe i have to explain that:
what im saying is that to get a freeblowing, easy to controll, nobiting setup, there is only one reedstrenght it will work on every mpc.
if one have the right relaxedness(is that even a word?? :o) and enough airsupport, there is no difference in the way anyone plays. the choice of mpc and reeds then only depends on what other soundqualities or "strenghts" one prefer in front of others(as pitchcontroll, darkness/brightness, smoothness and so on...)
does this sound completely out of line?
edit: im not saying that skygardener and others with really sharp teeth are biting to hard, but there is many others that is!! even a lot of professionals!
Post Edited (2007-09-14 05:57)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-14 07:06
pelo- one problem is that has to be factored in is that we are trying to get a 'good' tone. And the concept of a 'good' tone is taught- it is artificial. So we are told, 'This is a good sound. This is a good sound. This is a good sound. Not that sound you are making.' and we try to copy that other sound. We don't try for the sound that WE get most easily.
So when I (or anyone) tries to sound like someone else, I (or anyone) gets problems.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-09-14 08:42
but all the "famous" clarinetists, violinists, drummers, singers (and so on) didn't get so famous because they sounds like someone else!! they have a natural relaxed way of creating music and thay, i think, is what we, the audience wants to hear.
in orchestras it may be a good thing to blend in amongst others, but having your own sound isn't, imo the same as not blending! the two can mix. not easily, but i think that is a good way of putting in some effort instead of trying to emulate someone elses sound, and (because everyone are shaped differently,) also their bodyshape!!
wouldnt it be rather boring if every clarinetist on earth sounded the same??
(not talking about phrasing and stuff. that we have to copy! or we wouldn't have any functional orchestras!! :o)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-14 09:36
yeah, all of the famous players have their own sound and a lot of students try to have the same sound as the famous players.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-14 09:41
to Dave- do you know if the Invisalign material can be ordered in just one size, ie. not to move the teeth, but just to protect the lip. The things that I have seen people use from the dentist look rather bulky.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-09-14 10:36
With respect to clarinet:
Even with the same fundamental principles applied equally by three different players each will have their own unique sound. One of the most important reason for this is overlooked (at least in this discussion): each one has a different face with differentiating sets and shapes of oral cavities. That's not even talking about setup, or differences in pedagogical sound beliefs.
Learning young players attempt to imitate the most successful sound around them (or in many cases they just battle to MAKE the instrument do what they wish) without the proper fundamentals to do it efficiently and EASILY.
Pelo: There is more than one reed strenght that can complement any mouthpiece. Insisting that there is only one is incorrect.
Also, YOU may want a freeblowing setup while another clarinetists may prefer a more resistant setup. Both can be played without biting and relaxed, in an easy manner!
I will concede that many do not support the air as they should. We both agree that if you are not playing easily then something MIGHT be wrong!
"the choice of mpc and reeds then only depends on what other soundqualities or "strenghts" one prefer in front of others(as pitchcontroll, darkness/brightness, smoothness and so on...)"
Now pedagogically you and I disagree! Pitchcontrol and sound characteristics should never be left up to the clarinet or other acoutrements!
In one of Keith Stein's books he can be found saying that 75% of clarinetists (even the pros) bite to control the reed.
Granted that threads take on a life of their own, but we have an individual who has resolved to do without the lip guard and is wondering what advice he can get to that end. Instead the thread has devolved into a discussion of different materials with which to guard the lip!
Nick:
You may have sharp teeth. Only you (and a dentist) can determine this. Without anyone on the BB being able to investigate you through the internet (!) I would say that you bite and have done so subconciously to control the reed.
The solution to end such a subtle and invasive detractor is a radical one which you may adopt temporarily or permanently. Double lip embouchure. However, several principle of the double lip are fundamentally different from single lip biting! You need to find a teacher who uses it, or a text that can explain it properly (Tom Ridenour's Educators Guide for example).
If you say you cannot play altissimo A without pain, I would respond that you have a problem: either biting to control the reed, or very sharp teeth. Double lip might be able to solve both.
Will you mouth heal? Absolutely, and faster than other parts of your body. Should it have to?
Do others use lip guards? Obviously. Do you have to?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: David White
Date: 2007-09-14 11:14
Nick, You can get your dentist to slightly round off the edge on the front
forward edge (& back edge) of your bottom front teeth. It only takes a couple of minutes and is painless. It will not affect the teeth. I had it done about 30 years ago and the teeth are fine and I have no trouble playing.
I have not heard of people using a protector on the teeth.
I had it done in regard to trumpet playing at the time but I play a lot of clarinet these days. The bottom inside of your lip will toughen up over a period of weeks, if you play without a protector just gradually get it used to it.
I am from Melb. Australia, by the way. David W.
East Side Jazz Band
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-09-14 11:43
One thing I did that helped me to bite less and eased the pressure off of the bottom teeth is to forcibly push upwards on the clarinet. Pushing the mouthpiece UP into my top teeth kept it secure and from moving around at all, and it eased the pressure off my bottom teeth. I don't push up so hard anymore (or maybe I do and I'm used to it so don't notice . . . ?)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-14 12:21
question for double lippers- would using paper on the top teeth defeat the purpose?
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2007-09-14 15:24
Wow this thread has gone longer than I expected it to...
UPDATE - The past few days I have tried the Tally Ho Paper thing and also green stretchable florist tape. I have had success with both, and today I played for hours without any pain at all and the paper/tape is much thinner and less noticeable than the teeth guard. Silly me started this thread on the very first day I had decided to remove the plastic teeth guard so my lip was not used to it. I have been making a nuisance of myself asking people to show me their bottom teeth so I can compare and yes I do get the feeling mine are sharper than others I have seen. Anywho... I have noticed that I am playing more effortlessly already with a more open sound. As an experiment, I put my teeth guard back in my mouth and it felt very bulky (invasive) and when I went to play the sound was tighter and smaller because, as I suspected, it does encourage me to use more pressure than I would without it.
Thanks for all your replies, there has been some very interesting stuff said..some of which didn't make a whole lot of sense! but thanks all the same.
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-09-14 16:00
tobin: about pitchcontroll, i ment the ability to adjust the tonehight.
there is mpc's that gives you huge controll and you can bend allmost as much as you want. and there is mpc's where the pitch is stable and one have to work hard to change it much! "klezmer vs. classical" sort of. :o)
there is also the ones who gives a dark "timbre" feeling. and the ones who have a slightely brighter sound. and so on...
isn't that why there are so many different mpc's?
because everyone wants different things and prefer some playingcharateristics in front of others?
i know that that's why i chose one mpc in front of an other, even within the same brand and model. and one i have rejected maybe great for someone else. because that's what he was after regarding these charateristics!
when it comes to biting, there is
biting = pressing the jaw against the reed to get a good tone, sounding the way its "supposed" to be.
and "biting" = keeping the jaw relaxed and just let the mpc lie in the mouth while the rest of the lips are doing the job holding the sides airtight, then the air and that alone makes the reed vibrates and causes the tone!
the only pressure that is needed is the one that are made by the lips and the clarinet itself!
then you get the tone that is most suited to your body, and are easiest, and most comfortable to make!
then the strenght of air determines what reedsize to use! and one can only blow so hard!
(ofcourse the pressure is changing when playing, intonation is never perfect, but that is suppose to be just so little, in most cases, with a good overall tuning horn! )
clarinets are made to be an extension of yourself and not a way to mimic your heroes!!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-09-15 08:15
Aussie Nick wrote:
>> ...I have tried the Tally Ho Paper thing and also green stretchable florist tape. I have had success with both...>>
...success as judged by the musical results as well as by increased lip comfort, no?
That's what is suggested by your further statement:
>> ...as an experiment, I put my teeth guard back in my mouth and it felt very bulky (invasive) and when I went to play the sound was tighter and smaller because, as I suspected, it does encourage me to use more pressure than I would without it.>>
This, for me, lays bare the (unjustified) assumption that the difference in sound between the two setups is due to you using more pressure when using the teeth guard.
Rather, the different geometry of what supports the lower lip wrap results in a different shape and area of the lower lip presented to the reed, and it's well known that the resultant sound is highly sensitive to that shape and area. That's explained in more detail in 'Embouchures in general':
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2002/04/000770.txt
...which also gives a definition of 'biting' that allows us to understand why it is counterproductive, and why it has been discouraged by insightful teachers.
Unfortunately, the instruction not to 'bite' is now misunderstood by people, some of them on this BBoard, who think that it means there should "IDEALLY" be ZERO pressure between the lower teeth and the lower lip -- which is just not true, as almost any professional orchestral or chamber music player will tell you. I choose those categories of players, by the way, because THEY have to produce playing that satisfies fairly well-defined criteria of excellence -- as opposed to simply 'expressing themselves'. Otherwise they'd lose their jobs.
(Actually, I maintain that there isn't 'ideally' ANYTHING -- apart from what produces a musically required or musically justifiable result.)
In my own case, because I have an overcrowded lower jaw, and therefore sharp and uneven lower teeth, I have been playing with various sorts of teeth guard (tg) for some 40 years. As a young player, I suffered unnecessarily because I never considered orthodontistry, which for that matter wasn't very advanced or known about in the UK at the time. I first used gutta-percha, and quickly found that the thinnest tgs that I could make produced the best sound, and gave me the most flexibility. Unfortunately this (natural) material became crumbly after a bit, and I now find that mouldable plastic works much better. But different mouldable plastic tgs definitely produce different results -- and to a surprising degree, I find.
You can verify that that's due to the effect on the lower lip wrap by CHANGING your lower lip wrap -- you can often then mimic the result of one tg whilst using another, even though you wouldn't want to play like that routinely.
BTW, it amused me that some of the people who were definitely against your using a tg, because 'it might encourage biting', spoke of your developing a lower lip callus. What could be more indicative of 'biting' than that?-)
Tony
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-09-15 08:24
Mr.Pay- what are these moldable plastics you mentioned? Are they from art stores? Do they require heating to harden them?
There is a art product with the brand name 'Femo' as I recall. Is this what you mean?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2007-09-15 09:43
Skygardener wrote:
>>...what are these moldable plastics you mentioned? Are they from art stores? Do they require heating to harden them?>>
Well, I currently use a tg I made from a piece of a sheet of thin plastic my dentist gave me, moulding it as described in:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/1999/01/000306.txt
...which also gives another source of mouldable plastic than your dentist.
But I find that my dentist's (slightly harder) plastic, though more difficult to work than the plastic I describe in the Klarinet post, minimises the change in sound and feel between using and not using the tg.
Tony
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Author: pelo_ensortijado
Date: 2007-09-15 10:04
hello mr pay.
"Unfortunately, the instruction not to 'bite' is now misunderstood by people, some of them on this BBoard, who think that it means there should "IDEALLY" be ZERO pressure between the lower teeth and the lower lip -- which is just not true, as almost any professional orchestral or chamber music player will tell you. I choose those categories of players, by the way, because THEY have to produce playing that satisfies fairly well-defined criteria of excellence -- as opposed to simply 'expressing themselves'. Otherwise they'd lose their jobs."
i'll guess thats a nice hint to me, and i have to respond!
i DIDN'T say that zero pressure is the ideal!!! then you have missunderstood my post. might depend on my bad english and, as i se now, not very clarifying explanation in the previous posting. so i write to explain!
i did say that biting is not when knowingly pressing the jaws together to get the required sound, but just using the weight of the clarinet ON the jaw and make the most of the pressure with the LIPMUSCLES(wich are giving a great pressure after some training, as you all know!!). when those muscles dont have the power to press any more, the good tone is long gone!
i know that the fastest way to get it sounding right is using the allready strong muscles in the jaw, and therefor many people are using them instead of the weaker lipmuscles. not knowing that alot of vibrations are unnessessary damped there!
not saying that jaws are not to be used for a bit pressure! just minimize the use of it!
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2007-09-17 12:53
back in high school I used to use a ton of pressure and thus, with my sharp lower teeth, cut into my lower lip actually bleeding. of course, since then I have changed my emb, but even after a couple hours or so of playing my still sharp (maybe sharper ) lower teeth really get to me and I use cig paper on it. It's thin enough not to upset anything and it is usually just to take the "edge" off the sharpness.
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Author: Eric T
Date: 2010-04-16 18:09
Lower teeth guard: I have read thru the older posts on this subject, but have not found the answer I'm looking for...I need a lower teeth guard when I go to chamber music workshop for a week, which involves playing 6-8 hours a day---by the fourth day, I'm bleeding. I had my dentist make an impression of my lower teeth, but he isn't sure how wide and how deep to make the teeth guard. Any suggestions?
Eric
et
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-16 18:26
Eric,
It really doesn't need to be any wider than your front 4 teeth. The pressure isn't any wider than the width of the reed anyway.
As far as how "deep" it should be, I'm not sure. as long as it's not pressing down on your gums or especially where the front of the teeth recede into the gums (OUCH!).
What does the dentist plan on using? Perhaps while you have the impression made, a few can be made of varying styles and\or materials that can provide you with the best fit.
I just use EZO cut into small pieces (all the time).
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Author: Eric T
Date: 2010-04-16 18:54
Dear NBeaty--thanks for the advice. The dentist showed me two thicknesses of clear plastic--I'll choose the thinner one, follow your advice on limiting the span to the four front teeth, and have the protector stop about 2/3 of the distance from the top of the teeth. BTW, what is the substance you use, that you referred to in your post?
Eric
et
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-04-16 19:32
EZO denture pads - basically gauze impregnated with bees wax, meant, I think, to help hold dentures in place and protect the gums from being irritated by them. It's is available in any drug store (look in the dental area with toothpaste, denture adhesives, etc.) and very inexpensive. Use it the way many players use folded cigarette paper. Cut a piece off the strip wide enough to cover your bottom front teeth, warm it in your mouth for a few seconds to soften the wax, then just fold it over the teeth. You can fold it any way that's comfortable. If it isn't comfortable, just straighten it out and try again. I use a single piece sometimes for weeks - I'm still using the box I bought, maybe, 15 years ago.
I don't know if professionally molded appliances do a better job, but EZO has always been more than adequate for my needs.
Karl
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Author: Eric T
Date: 2010-04-16 22:40
Thanks for the great info, Karl. I appreciate it!
Eric
et
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Author: aloutris
Date: 2010-04-16 23:31
More air pressure, less lip pressure!
If you have an audition coming up, it would be better to change after it, because if you're getting used to playing without it and you're not used to playing with it, you can't play at all.
~Amanda~
(piano, clarinet, learning flute)
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2010-04-18 10:51
Skygardener: "do you know if the Invisalign material can be ordered in just one size,"
I don't think so - their business is supplying between 20 and 60 "trays", and working with you for months or years to straighten your teeth. One-offs wouldn't fit with this. Also, the trays cover your whole arch, not just the teeth involved in playing.
I just finished two-and-a-half years with the infernal things. Could play fine with them the whole time, but noticed a definite improvement in sound, agility and large intervals since I stopped. Wish I possessed some musicality that I could observe improving!!
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The Clarinet Pages
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