 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jockabilly
Date: 2007-09-06 23:06
Hi I'm new here but I wonder if anyone can help me?
I have just acquired an old clarinet to save my R13 from abuse, and I can't find anything about it (limited information as I haven't received the instrument yet) but it is a Boosey and Hawkes Marlborough clarinet? I have never seen this model before. Has anyone else? Also does anyone know where I can get a Key post with needle spring hole/spring) for a Boosey Edgeware clarinet? or advice on how I can extract a broken needle spring that has snapped off flush with the post and seems to be corroded in place.
Thanks in advance.
Jockabilly
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-07 00:24
The B&H Marlborough is the same as an Edgware and Series 2-20 (and has the same 14.9mm bore as a Regent, Edgware, Emperor and Imperial 926) - a modern equivalent for insurance purposes is a Buffet E11 or Yamaha YCL-450.
I've seen three of them (I own one myself) - they are unusual for B&H clarinets in that they have a metal bell ring when most didn't, and I think this was mostly fitted to B&H clarinets made for the US market as the UK ones very rarely had metal bell rings.
As for the broken needle springs, B&H fitted phosphor bronze springs that did indeed snap flush with the pillar. But these can be removed easily - unscrew the pillar and place it down on a lead block with the broken end of the spring (and faced off side of the pillar) upwards. Then get a fairly sharp steel punch (or large diameter blue steel needle spring) and tap the pillar out from the broken end. It should pop out with little trouble. If it is a bit stubborn, heat the pillar up in a flame and add a drop of oil to the broken spring so it penetrates and then try again. Then once it's out, refit the pillar and fit a blued steel needle spring instead of a crappy phosphor bronze one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-07 09:00
Hi,
I also have an old B&H clarinet, with a metal bell ring. It is stamped Le Fleur on all the wood parts. I have been told that it is a french import c1956( from the serial No.)
Anyone have any idea where it might fit in the range, or what its equivalent might be?
TIA
Dave R
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-07 13:18
Hi Dave,
Some Lafleur clarinets were made by Malerne, and some were made by Corton (Amati). Have you got any photos of it? If you could post some detailed photos of it on here (especially the keywork), we can determine who made it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jockabilly
Date: 2007-09-07 20:23
Thanks for the information and the help with the spring issue. Are the Edgeware and the Marlborough from different time periods do you know?
My Edgeware I believe dates from the late seventies.
My edgeware also has the metal bell ring I had wondered if this was perhaps a sales option when they were new because I have seen many Edgewares, Regents and Emperors both with and without the Bell ring.
Jockabilly
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-07 20:58
All the different names (but all the same model clarinets) mentioned above were concurrent, the Marlborough was around in the '60s as was the Series 2-20 and Edgware (though the 'Edgware' name has been around for a lot longer than the other names), basically it's the same clarinet under a different name. I'd assume your Marlborough has a 190000-240000 serial number which is early to mid '60s (ignore most online serial number lists for B&H clarinets as they're way out).
The Rudall-Carte 'Starlight' being another Edgware by a different name, and there were unstamped ones as well - no logo or name at all, just the serial number on the back and 'MADE IN ENGLAND' above the thumbrest.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mike Hancock
Date: 2007-09-09 22:37
Here's another question for Chris P . . .
I have a Bb clarinet labelled MARKIS by The British Band Instrument Co Ltd. A respected repair man has stated "It looks like a Boosey." . . . So, is this another example of the stencil instruments discussed above?
I can post/send pictures, if needed.
Thanks,
Mike Hancock
Post Edited (2007-09-09 22:53)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-09 23:00
If you could put some photos on here, that'd be good. Detailed ones of the keywork - trill key guide, throat G# and A keys, C#/G# key, ring keys, LH levers and RH cluster as well as the area on the back by the middle socket ring and thumbrest will help determine if it is, and roughly it's age.
Does it say 'Made in England' below the middle socket ring?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-10 12:49
Hi Chris, and the rest of you,
I posted some pic of my clarinet here, and would appriciate and further info about it. Sorry they're not to good.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j199/piperdave/10-09-07_1341.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j199/piperdave/10-09-07_1340.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j199/piperdave/10-09-07_1339.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j199/piperdave/10-09-07_1338.jpg
I have been told that it blows "very easily" and is a good quality student instrument. Where would it sit in the B&H range?
Many thanks
Dave r
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-10 14:46
That's the same as an Edgware (assuming it has nickel plated keys).
Appears to be in very good condition too!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-10 15:05
Thanks Chris,
I know nothing of the relationship between the B&H names and the quality of the instruments. Could you enlighten me?
You mentioned that you might be able to tell where it was made from the keywork, any ideas?
It is in very good nick. Not bad for £25.00....
I have a friend who looks after it for me. He works in central London
TIA
Dave r
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-10 16:17
If it says 'Made in England' on the back, it was made by B&H in north London alongside their other clarinets - only it got a different name stamped on it.
The Buffet E11 and Yamaha YCL-450 are the current equivalent models (entry level wooden clarinets) which retail between £670 and £715.
In the UK, the basic B&H lineup was as follows (and with the equivalent Buffet and Yamaha models in brackets):
Regent (B12 - YCL-26II/250) - plastic body, NP keys
Edgware (E11 - YCL-34II/450) - wooden body, NP keys
Emperor (E13 - YCL-650) - wooden body, SP keys
Imperial 926 (R13/RC - YCL-62II/CX)
Symphony 1010 (Prestige - YCL-82II/CSG)
The Edgware through to the Emperor could also be ordered with a plastic body, and the 926 and 1010 could be ordered with an ebonite body.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-10 16:38
Chris,
very kind of you to spend so much time on this.
I have looked for a Made in England stamp, but the only mark is La Fleur, London,Paris, New York, on the barrel and both main sections. The bell is wood, but unstamped. The mouthpiece is B&H London.
I have assumed the keywork is NP. How would you tell?
Dave R
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-10 16:52
Nickel plating is very shiny like a mirror, and fairly slippery (but not as slippery or as bright as chrome).
It doesn't tarnish black like silver, but does go a dull grey colour when it tarnishes and this isn't easy to remove (whereas silver can be brought back up from black to a bright shine with a bit of elbow grease).
Nickel is more slippery under the fingers than silver - but you really need to compare it with silver to see (and feel) these properties.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-10 23:49
As for the age of this clarinet, it has the later style (longer) C#/G# key touch, single trill guide and it appears to have a smooth LH F/C touch (instead of the cross hatched one resembling a nail file), and the later styled bridge key design with the flared part on the lower joint rings, so I'd say it's probably from the early '60s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-09-10 23:52
And the keywork definitely isn't Amati - so it must be a Malerne in disguise.
Does the upper joint have metal-capped tenons?
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-09-10 23:54)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-11 11:30
Malerne? This one is a B&H clarinet.
My B&H Marlborough has exactly the same keywork (mostly the newer style from the early '60s which saw service until they ceased production), but with the older smooth LH F/C touchpiece), so I'd assume the serial number is somewhere around 21xxxx to 22xxxx which is early '60s.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-09-11 12:17
Chris P wrote:
> Malerne? This one is a B&H clarinet.
I thought it was stamped "La Fleur"? I thought these were mady by Malerne or Amati...looks like I missed something.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-11 12:22
The one pictured (belonging to Dave R) is a MARKIS, by The British Band Instrument Co Ltd.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-11 16:07
Hi all,
I think there is some confusion here. My Clarinet is a Le Fleur. The Markis is owned by Mike Hancock!
My clarinet does have the upper joint tenons that are metal, and also the bottom joint lower(only) tenon is metal.
The serial No. is 1238XX, i have been advised that it may be 1956 ish
Dave R
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-12 00:22
Oh, me 'ead!
So the pictures are of the Le Fleur clarinet (and that is 'Le Fleur' and not 'Lafleur') and not the Markis.
And that is the same as a B&H Edgware.
Though I'd like to see photos of the Markis to see what that's like.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-12 15:39
Hi Chris,
I have checked again with magnifying glass and it seems that it iis LAFLEUR. It is very badly stamped and i made an assumption, sorry to confuse matters.
Yes the pics are of the LAFLEUR.
Dave r
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-12 16:06
So if the serial number is 1238xx, then B&H made clarinets with the redesigned keywork before the '60s which is earlier than I thought.
The Lafleurs from the '70s were the same as Cortons (Amati) and had ebonite bells which turned green, and these weren't in the same league as B&H's own clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-12 18:50
I was referring to the Czech Lafleurs which had ebonite bells.
Though the UK-built B&H "77" clarinets also had ebonite bells, but these are to be avoided like the plague as they had the dreaded die-cast mazak keys which were amost as soft as lead, and broke easily (and not easy or impossible to repair - unlike nickel silver which can be silver soldered).
The early wooden Regents also had mazak keys, and again should be avoided. You can tell which ones have mazak keys as there's a raised number on the underside of the LH levers - nickel silver keys also had numbers, but these were sunken into the metal rather than raised.
Don't worry Dave, your's has got nickel silver keys judging by the design - the mazak keys looked more like the keys found on early B&H clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mike Hancock
Date: 2007-09-12 19:34
Attachment: Markis Pic 5.jpg (30k)
Attachment: Markis Pic 6.jpg (33k)
And here are two more pictures to complete the set. You can see that "Made In England" appears above the thumb rest. The S/N is 182xxx followed by a capital M in a different size font. Also, all tenons have metal caps and I cannot detect any evidence of undercutting on any of the tone holes. I will be interested in your comments, particularly whether this can be considered a "step-up" or intermediate instrument.
Thanks . . .
Mike Hancock
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-12 19:47
Hi Mike, that's the same as an Edgware, Series 2-20 and Marlborough, though this one has the earlier style B&H keywork from the '50s - shorter C#/G# key (with pointed symmetrical touchpiece) and two trill guides being the most obvious differences (compare the Markis clarinet with Dave R's Lafleur to see the differences).
Again this one looks to be in excellent condition, and what is surprising since it has the later serial number compared to Dave R's Lafleur, it has the earlier style keywork.
Maybe the 'M' following the serial number was to designate this as a Markis instead of B&H when it came to being stamped. I'm not sure what differences there are between this and an Edgware of the same era. Some Edgwares also had metal bell rings.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-12 19:55
To be honest, is there a great deal of difference between an Edgware, Emperor and Imperial 926 in terms of playing characteristics?
The Emperor and Imperial 926 have silver plated keys (whereas the Egware has nickel plated keys) and the Imperial 926 has smooth joint rings (like a 1010) - but they all have the same bodies, bells and barrels, the same 14.9mm bore and same tonehole layout.
So I reckon you're just as likely to get as much out of an Edgware as you will from a 926.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2007-09-13 00:21
I really doubt the large bore clarinet will ever come back in fashion..I really love the 1010 clarinets from the early 70s. It seems quite a shame that Boosey stopped producing clarinets. They also made alot of junk...I prefer a small bore clarinet.
I do however find the Boosey clarinets fascinating...does anyone here know of the Clinton Reform Boehm clarinet...I have heard it was the finest instrument Boosey made...production was stopped in the mid 40 during WW2
David Dow
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-13 09:29
Chris ,
are you in Howarths London or Worthing site? If the later, would you like to see the Lafleur?
Dave
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-13 13:05
Hi Dave, I'm down in Worthing, though I only go in one day a week (as I'm an outworker) which can vary as to what day it is. I'll be in on Monday afternoon and probably the Wednesday the following week.
"I really doubt the large bore clarinet will ever come back in fashion..I really love the 1010 clarinets from the early 70s. It seems quite a shame that Boosey stopped producing clarinets. They also made alot of junk...I prefer a small bore clarinet."
Both Peter Eaton and Rossi produce 1010 bore clarinets which are popular, and not just in the UK.
"I do however find the Boosey clarinets fascinating...does anyone here know of the Clinton Reform Boehm clarinet...I have heard it was the finest instrument Boosey made...production was stopped in the mid 40 during WW2"
The Clinton-Boehm is a mixture of the Clinton system with Boehm layout for the LH and RH little finger keys as opposed to the simple system layout (as used on Oehlers).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-13 13:41
Chris,
do you want to do lunch in the Hare and Hounds on Monday; 13:10-13:45 ish? I'll be the one with the small black case!!
You might be able to advise me on the SP/NP key issue. Beer on me.
Dave
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Author: graham
Date: 2007-09-13 13:46
Chris
Hanson also produces a 14.9mm clarinet in their professional range.
Do you rate the Emperor as highly as most Edgwares? I think many Emperors were constructed to a poorer standard and were prone to extreme sharpness. My feeling is that the Edgwares are the bargains.
Also, didn't the 929 have some refinements like undercutting, or are you saying they were Edqwares with slightly better keywork?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-13 14:06
All B&H clarinets from the Regent to the 926 had the same keywork, though from the Emperor upwards it was silver plated.
The 926s may have had some undercutting (I'll have to have a close look at one next time I see one), but they were still sharp in the throat area (as were most B&H clarinets) and only in tune with themselves with the barrel pulled out by around 2mm.
The 1010 was the only one with integral tonehole chimneys - all others had ebonite inserts (except the plastic Regents).
But the Edgware was one of the few student models that was available in A, and there were plastic Edgware A clarinets as well, with the bodies machined rather than moulded.
But with any B&H clarinet, there were good and bad ones in all models.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bernards20040
Date: 2007-09-14 03:27
Hi I am new here. I have come over from Sax on the web Where i was told about his thread.
My teacher has just given me a Lafleur Clarinet which is marked Made in france on the main body just below the Tenon. It has metal capped tenons
(on the end of the male tenon) and has a metal rimmed bell. the serial No is D697 is this likely to be a Malerne.
And what is the Quality of Malerne clarinets like i can find very little information on these.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-17 09:51
Hi Bernard.
To me, that looks very much like a Malerne clarinet with the Buffet-style keywork they used, and the lower ring vent with the angled cup arm.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dave R
Date: 2007-09-18 09:12
HI all,
Just like to say a big thank you to Chris P for taking time out to meet and look at my clarinet. We had a great chat over lunch. He's a nice guy, and, as you all know, very knowledgeable.
The result of our meeting was that my Lafleur is probably very early sixties, not '56 as i thought (due to the style of the keywork), and in good condition. Probably made in the UK, but finished elsewhere, maybe France, which would explain no Made in England stamp. The serial No. is enigmatic, not being a Boosey No. but possibly a Lafleur No., though i have seen it listed as a B&H No. here
http://www.uark.edu/ua/nc/ClarinetCollections/Boosey%20&%20Hawkes%20Clarinet%20Serial%20Numbers.htm
which would indicate either 1955/6 or 1971/2. I may never find out.
Thanks again Chris,
Dave R
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-18 11:01
Cheers Dave - pretty interesting clarinet, and still a good one.
The number stamps used for the serial number aren't the same style as those used on B&H clarinets, and the serial number itself is inconsistant with the age of this clarinet, so the only thing that I can think it could possibly be is a clarinet made with all B&H parts (in kit form), but assembled outside the B&H factory and carrying Lafleur's serial number and logo (which is a fleur-de-lys).
http://www.uark.edu/ua/nc/ClarinetCollections/Boosey%20&%20Hawkes%20Clarinet%20Serial%20Numbers.htm This serial number list is also way out. Just as a guide, 220000 is 1965 and 550000 is 1983.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-09-18 11:03)
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Author: Ken V
Date: 2007-09-23 06:48
Hello,
I also have recently aquired a Boosey & Hawkes model 1-10 Made in England s/n 196181, and by the list in the previous post made in 1979. I have completely disassembled and cleaned it and it plays as is, but it really needs pads, springs, and corks all around. It was advertised as wood but is not (ebonite?). Other than the replaceable parts it appears to be in excellent condition. I saw in one of the first posts in this string that a recommendation was made to replace the bronze springs with blued steel. I will do that as they are much easier to find and it sounds like it is a better choice. The keys appear to be nickle-silver and in good order. Can you tell me anything about the quality of an instrument like this in general? It is for my son who is just beginning and is playing in the school band.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-09-23 09:59
196181 is from the early '60s. The 1-10 is the same as the B&H Regent which is the entry level plastic clarinet, on the same level as a Buffet B12.
These are probably made from bakelite (as were early Vito and Yamaha clarinets) and will be an ideal instrument to learn on provided it's all in good working order.
But bakelite is brittle, so make sure it doesn't get knocked over (don't stand it up on a floor on it's bell without a proper clarinet stand!) or the middle tenon will snap.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dick A
Date: 2010-10-27 11:37
Hello Chris, I have just been reading your entry dated 7.9.07. I know it's a long time ago, but as I have a very nice, unnamed clari. number 2701xx with Reginald Kell (?) pattern keys, I thought you may have some info. about it. It is obviously a B & H clari. it lived in an old B & H case with a tin of B & H cork grease in it. It appears identical to my Emperor, except for the barrel ferrules which are Edgware-like, and a silver ring on the bell. The joints are wood, but I think the bell is a resonite or something. The keys appear the same as the Emperor, and there are no numbers under the left hand levers, just a nice smooth silver surface. Thank you in advance for any info.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-10-27 15:02
I don't know why B&H didn't stamp some clarinets - I used to borrow a '50s Edgware which didn't have any maker's stamp but did have the serial numbers and 'Made in England' on the lower joint by the serial number, the case and all other accessories (case, ligature, cap, reed holders, grease pot, maintenance pamphlet, etc.) with it were original B&H equipment.
If the keys are nickel plate it generally implies an Edgware and silver plate generally implies an Emperor - the only real difference being the keywork plating. Sometimes a clearly marked Emperor may have nickel plated keys or a plastic body with silver plated keywork, though as it's the same bore as all the narrow bore B&Hs, it is in essence a Regent with silver plated keywork.
The few models of B&H clarinets with metal bell rings are usually destined for the export market, though some Besson ones (in wood, ebonite and plastic) often have metal bell rings plus the B&H 2-20, export model Edgwares and Marlborough clarinets (which are all Edgwares).
If the barrel has different rings to the rest of the clarinet it could be a replacement - as could the bell as they supplied all wooden clarinets from the early '60s instead of wood with an ebonite barrel and bell (as on the B&H "77" which also had mazak keys - the early Regent was all wood but with mazak keys).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Sammidav
Date: 2012-09-22 17:43
Hello I have just acquired a Lafleur clarinet with serial number 10063. It says made in France but also has a stamp Lafleur London Paris New York. It looks like it is made of wood but the bell is a different colour and may be old plastic. It has a wrap around register key.
I would be very grateful if you could give me an idea of age based on the serial number.
Thank you,
Sam
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Author: dream62
Date: 2012-09-22 18:13
This instrument was made for Lafleur back in the 1930's before Lafleur were bought by B&H.
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Author: Sammidav
Date: 2012-09-22 18:22
Thanks for the very fast answer. So what materials is this likely to be made of? It looks like wood and some kind of plastic for the bell. The mouth piece metal work certainly has an angular 1930s look to it.
Thanks agin,
Sam
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-22 18:57
The bell is either black lacquered wood to match the colour of the rest of the instrument (and usually gets scratched to reveal the bell is made from rosewood), or ebonite which usually turns green or sometimes orangey-brown.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2012-09-22 20:03
Chris -
Way up in the string, you wrote that published B&H serial number lists are inaccurate. Do you have the good ones?
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paula S
Date: 2012-09-22 21:12
Hi Chris,
My first clarinet was a wooden Regent with the dreaded silly keys. At the time my parents had bought me a decent Emperor flute which was then my main intrument. I still have both! My clarineting then overtook my fluting and I was bought a pair of Edgwares ( which I still have). Then I outgrew them and was not sure where to go next. When I was more advanced I had a teacher for a year who played 1010s and after that one who played Buffet RCs and I was rather confused to say the least. I was about to audition for one of the Royal Colleges/etc but rather lost the plot![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif) . Added to that my very small hands and fingers were difficult to match perfectly but I went for a professional pair of Uebels ( which I still have ) I did try lots of clarinets before getting them but my heart was actually with the rather less practical and demanding 1010s which I have acquired a pair of in the last year and they are amazing! Moving swiftly on I have succumbed to a pair of the early Eatons in the last week for my 25th wedding anniversary and they are fab but far less demanding to play. Looking back I regretted for years not going for the more demanding 1010s but it was early 80s and probably Boosey's worse period of production so I probably had a narrow escape. My husband had a brand new Emperor at that time and it went back numerous times as it seized up after about 30 mins playing. We still have it and it has only been played about a dozen times but should really have gone on the bonfire! Sad but true that Boosey left themselves wide open to a takeover. Thank goodness for Peter Eaton who has restored my faith in the British wide bore tradition and hand on heart I can say makes the most amazing clarinets! ;-)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-09-22 22:00
B&H clarinets were and still are very different beasts compared to French clarinets - some people like them and others don't, but at least for their devotees Peter Eaton still makes the nearest thing to them.
The most accurate B&H serial number list is found on Steve Sklar's site:
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnBH.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Sammidav
Date: 2012-09-23 08:31
Hello Chris,
Yes the bell is tinged more orangey-brown than green.
Could anyone tell me the sort of value this has? As it (1930s Lafleur) is an Albert style one and plastic bell does this make it a low value? I am looking to get new pads and cork on it but I may spend more than it is worth. It does however look the the clarinet I learnt on so am quite attached to it already. Just for info really.
Sam
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Author: Puffing Mummy
Date: 2013-07-24 03:02
Hello, newbie here! I have just been loaned a J R Lafleur and Son Eb stamped with a fleur de Lys on the Wooden Bell. The serial number is 13032. There are no other markings. It has Nickel Plated Keys.
Any idea of the age of this Chris?
I am going to cut down some Bb reeds, as the sound is pretty awful! Could I possibly have a Clari that is not 440ish? It sounds that bad!
If you are still in Worthing once a week at Howarths, I could hopefully call in. It may need some work anyway!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-24 07:05
Hi Puffing Mummy, I haven't seen many genuine JR Lafleur clarinets so don't know much about them - only instruments stamped Lafleur I have seen were ones imported in the '60s and '70s by B&H which were usually Czechoslovakian (Corton/Amati) and not great.
I don't go over to Worthing anymore, but see if you can post a photo of this Eb clarinet on here so we can have a look. If its a simple/Albert system, it could very likely be sharp pitch (452Hz) if it's of a certain age.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Late_returner
Date: 2013-07-24 19:06
Hi Chris
earlier in this item you list the various B&H models.
Everyone seems to add 926 automatically to the Imperial, but I have one with and one without 926. Serial 42836 has stamped on bell & u/j : Imperial ( without 926) in a kind of arc, italic letters, the Musical Globe logo and Boosey & Hawkes in non italic capitals. It has had a fair amount of restoration, but plays very nicely. ( well I think so !)
Serial 292726 has the normal stamping on bell and u/j : Imperial inside a cartouche with a crown, Boosey & Hawkes London and also bears 926.
Apart from the obvious age differences, were there any quality spec differences between the 926 and the pre 926 Imperial? Would they be the same bore ?
Just going on how they blow I have always assumed they must be the approx bore of the Buffet RC ???
thanks in advance
Roy
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-07-24 23:34
They would both be the same bore but there may be subtle mechanical differences in the keywork.
In my opinion the Imperials of the 40's and 50's were better made than in later years, I have owned several made between 1946 and 1979. (they still had some of the original craftsmen working at Edgware in those earlier days).
42836 would be one of the earliest made in about 1946/47.
I had a pair many years ago ser 36xxx which were made in 1946 and owned originally by a Halle player. This had point screws on the mechanism.
By the early 1950s the (926) was fitted with rods throughout just like the 1010.
Later on the 926 reverted to point screws again.
Certainly up to the early 50's there was no "926" marked on the instrument and the logo you mentioned first was certainly in use to at least 1953.
The bore is 0.592 inch or about 15.05mm - much larger than the RC and is parallel from top of barrel through the upper joint and well into the lower joint until the normal French style lower end expansion.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-25 09:42
I know someone with an older style ebonite Imperial and the bore on that is definitely around the 15.05-15.2 mark - I think RCs have a 14.75mm bore which is the largest bore Buffet currently use on their sopranos, but nowhere near as wide as a B&H bore which were 14.9mm on most of their clarinets (apart from the 15.2mm bore of the Symphony 1010).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Late_returner
Date: 2013-07-25 16:37
Norman ,Chris
Thanks for the info on my Imperials.
Mine are wood, but if its correct that the Imperial was the Army's clarinet of choice (?) then I guess the attractions of a man made version would be obvious for marching around the pink bits on the map. So presumably there were a fair number of "plastics" made.
Thanks, Roy
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-07-25 22:03
Roy, yes all the forces used the Imperial widely at least in their staff bands. Some of the lower clarinet stands often had Emperors in many line bands and in the Royal Marine Bands the Solo clarinet players were issued 1010s from some point on. I do have an ex RM Band Imperial (926) A dating from 1946 so that's clearly what the solo players were using back then.
Quite a few Imperial and Emperor models were made in ebonite primarily for the forces although the majority of Imperials that pass through my hands are wood.
I suspect one reason the Imperial moved away from having rods in all it's mechanism was the harder life that clarinets had in military circles.
A small knock to rodded keywork can instantly cripple an instrument and is not easily fixed without special tools whereas with pivot screws a bent shaft may well carry on working and is certainly quite easy to rectify.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2013-07-25 22:22
They made the rod screws in such a way on Imperials and 1010s that any knocks or falls weren't instantly disastrous on the mechanism by leaving 15mm or so of both ends of the rods the full diameter and machined down the rest (in betweeen) by up to 1mm narrower.
To be honest, if they left the rods the same diameter along their length and fitted the keys well, then they'd work fine and are much easier to straighten as the key tube won't narrow where the bend or knock is which will make extracting the screw a pain.
While rummaging around in the woodwind scraps drawers in RM band Portsmouth's workshop I found some players in the past also had Selmer CTs as there were various joints (both Bb and A) with most keys missing (and other bits scavenged from them) and a couple of cracked CT bells.
Whereas nowadays the R13 and R13 Greenline are the mainstay of RM band musicians, there are some with R13 Prestiges and Howarth S2 and S3 clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2013-07-25 22:37
Chris, yes they eventually learned (the hard way) but for some years the rods actually were full diameter all the way.
My first clarinet, a 1954 Emperor, had full size rods and yes the Emperor back then was essentially identical to the Imperial apart from being nickel plated (and probably less hand tuning applied).
In front of me I have a 1953 Imperial A also fitted with full size rods even on the long LH F/C linkage.
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The Clarinet Pages
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