 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: nes
Date: 2007-09-03 05:22
What would you class as the most difficult clarinet pieces?
I want to hear your views on this, but would the Francaix, Nielsen and Copland concertos be among them? How about the Rossini Theme and Variations, and how about the Le Tombeau de Couperin?
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Author: DaveF
Date: 2007-09-03 07:38
The Debussy Premiere Rhapsody is so difficult in so many ways, requiring complete musicianship. For just pure technique, the Martino Set does me in.
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-09-03 19:32
I would think the Original Copland would be way up in terms of technique as well... seeing that even Benny Goodman was not "confident enough" to perform it
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-09-03 20:38
On the Marine Band thread, Tom Pulanski, responded with "a most difficult", the cl part in Barber's School For Scandle, transscribed for concert band. It sure sounded great&tough !, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-09-03 21:32
If we are talking about band repertoire, some of the orchestra transcriptions like Don Berger is referring to are really difficult due to the key (lots of sharps). But my nomination for one of the most difficult is the 2nd clarinet part on Rocky Point Holiday.
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Author: Clariphant in Bb
Date: 2007-09-03 21:46
I'm not nearly good enough to play most of the things mentioned, so I don't have firsthand experience. Regardless, I hear Gnarly Buttons is hard.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-09-03 23:01
As far as raw technique, I'm in total agreement with DaveF on the Martino! That puppy's TOUGH!
I don't think the Nielsen is too bad in the grand scheme of things, but it is difficult to play all the right notes and rhythms AND play expressively on it! I don't think it's as hard as the Martino in terms of general technique though.
Additionally I don't think the Copland is any harder than the Nielsen. They're just monumentally different from one another!
Mozart is hard because of the audibility of the details of technique which less tonal works mask more easily. Each and every articulation, finger placement, and intonation is immediately heard, whether good or not.
And as for the band transcriptions, that stuff can be much much much more difficult than a large percentage of our solo repertoire. Much Much Much.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2007-09-04 01:10
"Classic" by Peter Griffith probably presents more technical difficulties than the Martino. Phillip Rehfeldt recorded both (on the same Advance Recordings lp.)
A question is, what does "difficult" mean. One answer rates difficulty according to the relative amount of work most professionals would need to do to become ready to play a given piece in public.
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Author: nes
Date: 2007-09-04 02:53
Could anyone attempt listing in order of most difficult the music between the Francaix, Nielsen, Copland, Martino and Rossini?
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-09-04 04:36
Easiest to most difficult, IMO:
Rossini
Copland
Nielsen
Francaix
Martino
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2007-09-04 07:09
That looks about right to me.
Maxwell-Davies' Strathclyde Concerto (#4?) for clarinet & orch. is a beast of a piece as well while we're talking about him.
Most of that stuff like the Corigliano, Fourchotte, Rochberg, et al. is really tough technically. I.m.o. harder than the Martino Set but I suppose all that's up for interpretation. As far as overall difficulty goes, the list above is pretty good. The Rossini is probably in the 50%-ile of the literature whereas the Francaix and Martino are in that upper 90% in difficulty.
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Author: nes
Date: 2007-09-04 07:12
"The Rossini is probably in the 50%-ile of the literature whereas the Francaix and Martino are in that upper 90% in difficulty."
And the Nielsen? Is the Nielsen in the top 90%?
Would you say the Nielsen, Francaix and Martino are the most difficult pieces for clarinet?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-09-04 09:14
From what I've seen (which isn't nearly the scope of others on this board), the nielson and martino set for clarinet are probably two of the hardest pieces I've ever attempted to play around with. Meaning I have them, and every now and then I work on them a little bit, but I'm not working them up to a performance level at any time. Just playing them for the sake of hearing something different.
The Rossini Theme and Varations I don't think is THAT entirely dificult. Sure it's a lot of technique, but some of the REALLY fast, technical parts turn out to be C or F scales/arpeggios or their related minors in various patterns. Which is dificult when done tough, but certainly attainable with practice.
The Copland I've never played, but I do have a copy of it. I'm thinking of working it up, but right now I'm focusing my energies towards working up the Artie Shaw Concerto. The Copland doesn't seem like it'd be that bad. A little awkward in the cadenza section, but probably not too bad to work up. Not nearly as tough as the nielson or martino.
I personally always have troubles with pieces that don't seem to me to have discernable patterns or scales in them. So the beginning of Martino's Set for Clarinet gives me the willies to look at cause it just seems like such an odd mixture of notes for me.
Alexi
PS - Dave Blumberg, I also agree that Joze Kotar's Rossini theme and variations is just amazing. I also have recordings by him of Weber's Grand Duo which is also equally amazing.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-09-04 11:55
Philip,
That's a great question and Katrina is right about the "much, much, much..." comment.
IMHO, the factors that contribute to making a transcribed orchestra part hard seem to be some really hard keys that do not lay well on the clarinet. The 2nd clarinet part tends to have a loci over the break which is not much fun at times. Challenging alternate fingering situations abound. Sometimes I'd rather play 3rd and watch the 2nds and 1st struggle. Two real bears to play are Arnold's Four Scottish Dances and Tam-O-Shanter - I believe both were originally orchestra pieces. The big exposed 1st clarinet solo in Four Dances lays very well and can be sight-read. After that, To The Woodshed!
Additionally, pieces like Nelson's Rocky Point Holiday have some tremolos and scale-like patterns that are really devilish. Add a few rhythmic problems with a brisk tempo and you have your work cut out for you. Maybe Nelson just wanted a "wall of sound" effect?
I am glad that I have gotten back to playing a lot more sax (alto and tenor) in several of the the symphonic wind ensembles I am a member of. With octaves rather than 12th to deal with, I am a happier and better prepared section member. Sax has a lot of really cool alternate fingerings to use at times.
HRL
PS Bassoon parts can really be tough as well. I've played my share of them but they are still not as hard as some of the 2nd clarinet parts I mentioned above.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-09-04 14:02
Less dificult first:
Rossini
Copland
Martino
Nielsen
Francaix
I would rank the Francaix as being far more difficult than the Nielsen.
Hard Band Piece? - transcription of Das Lied Der Apostel Wagner is 3 pages of 16th notes in cut time at a quick tempo. From the Asst. Principal in the Marine Band I'm told that it's a concentration thing that makes it so difficult.
Marine Band has a recording of it.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-09-04 14:03
Nes,
I woudn't say that the Nielsen is in the top for most-difficult. It's probably around 70% in the scale mentioned above.
I had forgotten about the Corigliano, and that indeed is up there with the Martino...I don't know any of the Maxwell Davies or the other contemporary material mentioned above, but I'd believe it's tough too!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-09-04 14:06
The Martino is easy compared to the Corigliano. I've about 10 different performers of the Corigliano (Combs, Drucker several times, Zukovsky, Collins, Stoltzman) and only 2 of them got all of the notes in the opening passage. To nail the Martino is not a big deal.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-09-04 14:30
Any and all of the pieces mentioned and played like McLane would have played. The Copland was written for, and first played by , McLane.
richard smith
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-09-04 14:38
Depends on what "difficult" means. I agree with the first reply that the Mozart concerto is probably one of the hardest pieces to play. That is not because it is harder technically or in any other aspect than other pieces. It is because of its history and it would be the hardest piece to make it sound like there is a reason for you to play it.
A completely different way of "difficult" I saw when I was in a masterclass where classical players had improvise (part of the repertoire in a way). Some had psychological and mental blocks more difficult to overcome than anything in any piece they might play. Some didn't have those blocks but it was still very hard for them to improvise something that made sense. For them harder than any piece.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-09-04 15:28
rtmyth wrote:
> The Copland was written for, and first played by , McLane.
Not exactly.
The first performance of the Concerto was scheduled to be Ralph McLane with the Philadelphia Orchestra and Eugene Ormandy on November 24, 1950. However, in early November, NBC announced Goodman would do a radio premiere of the work on November 6, 1950 with Fritz Reiner and the NBC Symphony of the Air. The delay of two years from the original date of composition (1948) was due to Benny's busy schedule at that time.
McLane is credited with giving the first concert performance on November 24, 1950, and also the New York premiere of the work four days later...GBK
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2007-09-04 20:02
David Blumberg wrote:
"Rossini
Copland
Martino
Nielsen
Francaix"
I took out my version of the Martino and after playing through it I may have to agree with David and change my initial assessment. If you really study it you can find some patterns to follow albeit a lot of being able to play this for me is memorizing or at least being able to feel some of those passages.
I'll leave this thought: The Martino, Nielsen, and Francaix are three of the most difficult pieces in the rep. But the Corigliano far outdoes any of those (at least hitting all the notes at the appropriate tempos)!
:^)
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Author: clockwiser
Date: 2007-09-05 07:13
I heard that Peter Maxwell Davis's Senven Brightnesses is very very hard.
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Author: Danny Boy
Date: 2007-09-05 09:26
As far as I'm concerned, the Nielsen is not as technically difficult as say the Corigliano and Francaix (or Gnarly Buttons for that matter) but, much like the Mozart, needs the most thought, knowledge and research to get the most from it.
Personally I still find the last section of Weber 2 to be a nightmare...I'm convinced it's because I learned it poorly first time around!
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2007-09-05 14:44
OK, I'll chime in...
For technical difficulty, take a look at Brian Ferneyhough's LA CHUTE D'ICARE for clarinet and ensemble and the most difficult piece I've ever seen is by the same composer for solo bass clarinet called TIME AND MOTION STUDY 1.
Others I'd place on the technically diifficult list...
Kagel - Schattenklage (bass solo)
Scelsi - Preghiera per un ombra (Bb solo)
Mandat - Folk Songs (Bb solo)
Boulez - Dialogue de l'ombre Double (cl and electronics)
Richard Barrett - Knospend Gespaltener (C clar solo)
Donatoni - Clair (Bb solo) or Soft (bass solo)
For just sheer being difficult, regarless of technique... the most difficult thing I've ever played are the 4 repeated A's in the slow movement to Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
And for the record... I find that doing anything is difficult if I really want to do it well. And if it's not challenging to some degree then what's the point?
NES - is there a particular reason you started this thread? We all have our difficult things, so what is yours and how can we help?
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