 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-08-26 04:43
Let's say you had a horn stolen. Let's say after many years (like, decades), you run across it. Let's say you have incontrovertible proof that you were the original purchaser.
Do you have any practical claim on the instrument any more?
(I satisfy all the above conditions except actually finding the horn, so my interest is more than hypothetical, but only, perhaps, microscopically.)
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Author: Dano
Date: 2007-08-26 04:53
I would imagine that if you had proof that you were the original buyer, a police report of it being stolen from you, and a serial number to go along with all that, you would have at least a strong case. Maybe it depends on the jurisdiction.
I had a favorite clarinet stolen from me at gunpoint years ago and if I found it, I would raise hell just for the principal of the whole thing. Even if I couldn't get the horn back, I would not go quietly.
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Author: Mrs_gekko
Date: 2007-08-26 04:57
Hi Doug,
I would think if you had proof ie a police report with the serial number, then yes you would have claim on it.
I agree with Dano, I would raise hell just for the principal.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2007-08-26 06:07
I know someone who had an instrument stolen, said instrument ended up in a pawn shop, purchased in good faith from pawn shop, new owner checked with police to make sure it was not "hot" prior to purchase, word spread via the grape vine that "X" had recently bought a "Y" from pawn shop, original owner thought it sounded like his stolen instrument, knew the person who had purchased it, ended up on new owner's doorstep demanding his instrument back, original owner reunited with stolen instrument. But not quite in same condition. New owner liked to "fiddle" and had drilled hole to "improve tuning".
True story!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-26 08:06
I read stories in the news about pieces of stolen art that are found and returned to the original owner. It's a painting, but it's really just property and it think it would be the same for a clarinet or a car.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-26 08:43
Depends. When an insurance paid for the theft or the loss, then technically your ex clarinet belongs to the insurance companry. Else it's yours.
--
Ben
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-08-28 01:25
Hmm, it appears a police report is key here, in order to establish that the instrument was in fact stolen. (Duh!) Is THAT why people are reluctant to put full serial numbers in their ads on er, those auction sites? For fear someone might show up and claim the instrument as theirs? I wonder if I ever filed a police report. I was very young, and very green, so maybe not.
As a matter of fact, the horn was a Selmer MkVI alto, bought new by me in 1964, burgled from my apartment in 1968. A truly amazing-playing instrument, pristine and immaculate. I still have the faded "this instrument belongs to..." ID card that came with the horn, and every now & then I think, "hmm, what IF--"
thanks, though, everyone. Maybe I'll check the NYPD and see if they still have copies of burglary reports from back in the the Dark Ages...ya never know!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-08-28 02:15
Here's a true story regarding the NYPD. A clarinetist who has posted here in the past had his apartment burglarized some years ago while he was on tour. Among the instruments stolen was a Selmer Model 33 Bass Clarinet. The victim filed a police report and also reported the theft and serial number here (or on the Klarinet list, I forget which). Sometime later (could have been a year, but not much longer, as I recall), the bass clarinet turned up on eBay for sale by someone in New York who obviously didn't know much about it (starting bid around $500, no reserve). I recognized the instrument from its serial and e-mailed the original owner. Shortly thereafter the instrument was withdrawn from the auction. Later, the owner told me that the guy who was trying to sell the instrument had purchased it legitimately ... at a police evidence auction! NYPD never notified him that his instrument had been recovered. I never did find out what became of the instrument, though. "There are 8 million stories in the naked city. This has been one of them."
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-08-28 14:30
I'm not an attorney and this scenario certainly has all shades of legality involved, but it seems to me that the potential for getting such an instrument back is pretty slim. Even if it was discovered in someone's possession it would be hard to get it back if that person had purchased it in good faith from someone--even the thief. I know laws vary in the different states, so that would be another thing. And, as mentioned in one narrative above, the instrument might not be the same as it was before it was stolen. What thief takes the kind of care of an instrument that an owner who had spent cold hard cash for it would? Who knows what kind of temperature changes and neglect it has seen.
I bought an instrument back from a buyer a few months ago and it was a very different instrument than when I had owned it the first time. It had been 5 years since I had owned it, but it was not the way I remembered it. Of course, we tend to remember things more fondly than they deserve. Like people. Everyone loves Uncle Joe after he's dead.
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2007-08-28 14:42
Brenda Siewert wrote:
> Even if it was
> discovered in someone's possession it would be hard to get it
> back if that person had purchased it in good faith from
> someone--even the thief. I know laws vary in the different
> states, so that would be another thing.
IANAL either, but I think the US laws are pretty uniform in this case; the current owner gets the object back, the buyer is out. It happens relatively often with stolen cars third and fouth hand - few people actually check the VIN on the title with the VIN on the vehicle.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-08-31 14:40
Regarding the insurance company's payout on a claim: My daughter-in-law is an insurance adjuster, and she said that some companies will allow you to buy back the item even years after they settled the claim with you. She told me about one man who bought back an expensive item (not a car) that had been stolen 20 years ago. It's worth at least asking, that is if you even want it back.
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-08-31 19:48
"Regarding the insurance company's payout on a claim: My daughter-in-law is an insurance adjuster, and she said that some companies will allow you to buy back the item even years after they settled the claim with you. She told me about one man who bought back an expensive item (not a car) that had been stolen 20 years ago. It's worth at least asking, that is if you even want it back."
Obviously the insurance company wouldn't want to put up the trouble of researching and selling the Clarinet they got
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-08-31 20:50
There was a guy in the UK that got a stolen bassoon back over 40 years after it was stolen.
It was a Heckel (sp) and it had been stolen from his Volkswagon. A public school teacher in NY had come across it in his storeroom of instruments and questioned it's origin. Tracked down the original owner and returned it to him.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2007-09-01 06:32
I'm not an attorney and this scenario certainly has all shades of legality involved, but it seems to me that the potential for getting such an instrument back is pretty slim. Even if it was discovered in someone's possession it would be hard to get it back if that person had purchased it in good faith from someone--even the thief. I know laws vary in the different states, so that would be another thing.
disclaimer: I am not an attorney either
As I understand it, the laws are consistent accross in the entire U.S. with reguard to possesion: If it gets stolen from you, it technically can't be 'sold' legally, it just changes hands illegitimately. If you find something that you can prove was stolen from you (by police report and serial number etc), it should be easy to get it back if you have the proof, know where your item is, and if needed, the assistance of a local law enforcement official to inform it's illegitimate holder of what's going to happen...
www.cybersax.com has a very good writeup of it's experiences dealing with the situation of stolen instruments, it's a good read! :
http://www.cybersax.com/QA/Q&A_Stolen%20Saxophones.html
-JfW
Post Edited (2007-09-01 06:34)
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Author: ned
Date: 2007-09-03 05:14
I had a colleague ''borrow' one from me in 1968. He denied (to a third party, more than once) that he had it, although a picture of him and the instrument appeared on a jazz record cover a year or so after the event.
Not stolen really....just not returned eh.....a fine line here?
I now have it back in my possession via that same third person. It took 39 years to get it back. The same has happened to some records I loaned other colleagues over years. You learn not to loan anything to anyone eventually....exept to those few ''trusties''.
I'm sure you all have your own stories of one sort or another.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-09-05 00:28
Just a quick "thank you" for all the good information. I am going to check with the NYPD to see if the loss report is locatable, and if it is, then I'd have ... something. What I wouldn't have, of course, is the instrument, and I suspect Brenda's right about "chances of recovery very slim" and "who knows what condition it would be in, IF found"...
Still, it's worth making some moves. I'll check the Cybersax link momentarily, too. Thanks, all.
doug
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