 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CWH
Date: 2007-09-02 14:13
Fibracell vs. Legere Reeds
After looking back at recent discussions, it appears that some of us have begun to experiment with the new class of reeds. Primarily those made from some type of new composite materials. Many here have played or tried either one or the other brand. Some like Sherman has done some experimental time with Legere reeds and posted his findings.
My posting here is to inquire reply from players that have spent time playing both.
I have had wonderful playing experiences with one of the brands here (Fibracell). However, those reeds which I’m playing appear to be from older stock, prior to any recent changes in formulas or compounds used. The new reeds are well manufactured and a pleasure to play. However, there in my mind is a difference between the older stock and new stock.
As with many of us well all strive for consistency in our playing and as a rule one would believe that synthetic reeds manufactured in a controlled way would fit the bill. I believe in my heart that synthetic reeds will play a bigger part of players in the not to near future. If in fact that time has not already arrived.
None the less here is the question: Please describe your experiences in playing both of these synthetic reeds (Fibracell vs. Legere).
Thank you
CWH
Study, Practice, Play and Enjoy.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-09-02 14:42
I haven't done a really systematic comparison but I started playing synthetics when doubling in a pit orchestra and now pretty much use them exclusively. I prefer Legeres to the old Fibracells, and use Legere Quebec 3.25s on clarinet and Legere Studio Cut 3s on sax for a "modern" tenor sound — I still prefer Fibracells (the old Medium Hard and the new 3s) on a larger-chambered mouthpiece for a more "vintage" tenor sound — the Fibracell seems to provide a "buzz" which I like.
It took a little work to get used to the resistance on my clarinet set-up but I really like the sound now. I've also tried the Bari Star reed; a "medium" was okay on the tenor sax but even a "soft" felt like a popsicle stick on clarinet. Since I'm pretty happy with my current set-up I don't think I'll be experiementing with other synthetics but there are some interesting ones out there.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-09-02 14:43
Chuck -
Legere clarinet reeds have become hard to find in New York City. Most music stores stock only Fibracell. I practice mostly on a Legere, which for me isn't quite as good as cane, but which doesn't need soaking, is always the same, lasts forever and so on.
How do you tell the difference between old and new Fibracells? Are the markings different?
Ken Shaw
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-09-02 14:52
The new Fibracells are graded numerically and marked in red.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-09-03 13:43
I tried the Fibracells several years ago (old version I assume) and found them to be entirely too buzzy for my taste. Then, I started experimenting with Legere and I quickly saw their potential. Long story short, I've come to greatly appreciate Legere reeds for their tonal qualities, overall performance, consistency, and significantly greater ease in doubling. I've been using them exclusively for the past 2 years. On occasion I'll dust off my favorite cane reeds for a reality check and I still find that I prefer Legere.
As I've mentioned in other discussions about Legere reeds, some mouthpiece facings and ligatures work better with Legere than others. I spent several months -- doing mostly trial & error -- to find the facings and ligatures that resulted in me having smiles with the sound on each of my horns. On clarinet, I found that Walter Grabner's facings work especially well with Legere. This might sound counter-intuitive but I actually spent more time working to get Legere to play well for me on saxophone than clarinet.
Here's what I settled on:
Bb clarinet: #3 Legere Quebec, Walter Grabner K14 mouthpiece, Klassik string ligature
Bass clarinet: #3 Legere, Walter Grabner LB mouthpiece, Vandoren Masters ligature
Tenor saxophone: #2.5 regular Legere, custom made Ralph Morgan 6C mouthpiece, Klassik string ligature (alto sax version of the ligature).
Roger
Post Edited (2007-09-03 13:50)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-09-03 14:56
I like and prefer Lubyen or velcro ligatures with plastic reeds.
richard smith
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-09-03 15:34
(I'm only a month and a half into playing bass clarinet again for the first time in 30+ years, having worked my way up from a #2 to a #3 reed in that time. So please take these comments for what you think they're worth).
I recently purchased one of each type of synthetic reed for my bass, a #3 Fibracell and a #2.5 Legere.
Fibracell: once attached to the mouthpiece it became readily apparent that the reed curved away from the mouthpiece. (!!!) I tried to play on it and the sound was very buzzy and the curve made it difficult to play. I can't imagine that the curved profile is normal. Can anyone confirm?
Legere: I bought a #2.5 but it felt like it must have been a 4 strength or higher. While I was able to play on this reed in the chalumeau and lower clarion, notes above just wouldn't speak. For those notes I could play, I found the tone to be "dark", though not the kind of "dark" that I think anyone would consider an achievement. Here, "dark" for me means "boring and lifeless". But then again, this is what I've experienced before when trying reeds of too high a strength.
I'm going to return the reed to Legere (per their guarantee), have them replace it with a #2, and try again.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-09-03 20:04
Ski, did you use a standard cut Legere or a Quebec cut? Many on the board here have found that the standard cut does not offer them pleasing results, but the Quebec cut imparts a much better and more pleasing tone. I can't speak for the newest variety (the Ontario, I think it's called) as I have not sampled one of these.
Of the two I have tried, I have found the results produced with the 3.5 Quebec to be far superior to the standard. I play it on a Walter Grabner K13 with an Eddie Daniels II ligature.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-09-03 21:18
JJA, thanks for your reply. There's no indication on the packaging or the reed label as to what style the cut is. And a perusal of the Legere website lists the Quebec cut only in relation to Bb soprano reeds, not bass. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-09-03 21:29
Sorry, Ski, I missed that mention of bass clarinet in the original post you made. FYI, on soprano reeds, the Quebec reeds have a red dot on the butt end of the reed. I think the Ontarios are supposed to have three dots. At least, they had them when Legere was field-testing the prototypes.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-09-04 01:30
No problem Jeff, I appreciate the reply all the same.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-09-04 02:54
When you need to go synthetic: Legere for soprano; Fibracell for bass. The other way around sucks.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Mike Blinn
Date: 2007-09-04 05:39
Paul,
I've had good luck playing Legere on the bass clarinet for the last couple of years. Right now, I use Legere Tenor Sax (studio cut) 3.5 on a Woodwind Company mouthpiece and the setup plays great.
I've never tried Fibracell and I know they are cheaper than Legere, so your advice caught my attention. In what way do you find Fibracell superior to Legere?
Mike Blinn
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Author: eac
Date: 2007-09-04 07:35
Does anyone have any experience cutting a Legere Quebec cut Bb reed to use on an Eb? What tool did you use to cut the reed? And how did it compare to a regular Legere Eb reed? I guess for completeness sake it would be interesting to know what Eb mouthpiece you were using.
Liz Leckey
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-09-04 09:01
I tried Fibracell. It worked, but it was hard for me to control and didn't sound very good. But it did work.
For the past about one/two months or so (it's easy for me to lose track of time) I've been playing on Legere reeds (quebec 3.5). I currently switch between a Richard Hawkins B model and a Tom Ridenour Artist mouthpiece (the majority of the time is spent on the Tom Ridenour as of lately). Sounds great. I've gotten no complaints. The only remark I received from another musician in the band was, "I just can't believe you're able to get a sound like that out of a plastic reed." So it's not holding me back.
After using them for quite a while, I tried cane reeds again, and found them uncomfortable. I immediately noticed that they were out of balance, and I've grown used to the smooth underside and the non-asorbance of the legere, and the rougher underside of a cane reed and the dry mouth it produced didn't warrent playing it anymore (not to mention, I sounded worse because of it being out of balance).
I'm sticking with Legere's all the way. I do need to order a few more and am going to order a split between quebec and ontario to see the difference between those (BTW, I also didn't like the standard cut and really prefered the quebec).
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-09-04 13:59
Ski,
I'm scratching my head over your note about a #2.5 Legere (bass clarinet reed I assume) playing like a #4. Legere reeds tend to play somewhat stiffer than their strength grade. However, a #2.5 to #4 sounds extreme to me.
What mouthpiece and ligature are you using?
Here's something to check that may be of help to you:
Put a cane reed on your mouthpiece/ligature set up and measure from the tip to the point where the facing curve seperates from the reed. Then, put on your Legere reed and do the same measurement. If there is a difference that can help to explain why the Legere reed plays like a much stiffer reed.
It's been my experience that some ligatures do not seal Legere reeds correctly. I especially noticed this along the side rails. With this problem, it was like the mouthpiece suddenly had a longer distance from the tip to the facing curve break. This has the effect of a reed playing stiffer.
On bass clarinet, I've had good results with the Vandoren Masters ligature in using Legere reeds. It's a reasonably inexpensive ligature so it might be worth a try to see if it makes a difference for you.
I get a beautiful quality of sound with a #3 Legere bass clarinet reed on a Walter Grabner LB mouthpiece and Masters ligature.
Roger
Post Edited (2007-09-04 14:02)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-09-04 16:29
Dear Mike,
Ok, the Legere isn't too bad on bass but I find it a bit tubby....too few upper partials. The Fibracell, as mentioned above by another, have a nicer edge to their sound on bass. I have tried several different strengths of Fibracell on soprano with just awful results. On soprano the Legere can't be beat for a synthetic reed although I only recommend under two circumstances: doubling, where you have to jump from one horn to another alot; or when weather/humidity conditions have rendered real reeds completely useless.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2007-09-04 16:34
I prefer the Legeres, hands down, on the three instruments I've tried both on (soprano and bass clarinets and tenor sax). That said, I only use synthetic reeds when doubling -- I still prefer the sound, feel and response of good cane reeds.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-09-04 18:14
Roger,
Many thanks for your reply.
I'm using a Selmer C120/85 mouthpiece on my bass. Ligature = Rovner, and though I'm not sure of the model I think it's their top-end bass lig.
Here are the measurements I took. Hope I got it right, i.e., holding the mouthpiece sideways and measuring the distance between the reed tip and the mouthpiece tip (inside):
reed
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Cane reed (Rico 3) = 5/64" = ~2mm
Legere (2) = 6/64" = 3/32" = ~ 2.4 mm
Fibracell (2.5) = 7/64" = ~ 2.8 mm
Couple of things, keeping in mind that I'm still a beginner...
I normally position the Rovner lig high up on the mpc so that the top part of the lig fabric extends a bit above the mpc "hump". In other words, I'm kind of "choking up" on the lig. This gives me a good sound (well, you guys who really know how to play might not think so, but I'm enjoying it in the meantime ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) ) and it also gives me a flutey/clarinetty sound in the altissimo register. I've done a lot of experimenting with the position of this lig and "choking up" gives me a lot more stability in the upper clarion and altissimo notes using a #3 Rico.
Anyway, I just tried the Legere #2 again. Compared to a Rico #3 the overall blowing feel becomes very resistant and I get a lot of air leakage + air noise. Overall the sound is extremely mellow (dark?) with the Legere, though the lowest notes of the chalumeau are a bit buzzy. It's a tremendous amount of hard work to play with this reed. After just three breath-fulls of playing with it I couldn't wait to remove it and put my cane reed back on (though I did get a bit of an aerobic workout playing a C major arpeggio three times ).
Post Edited (2007-09-04 21:46)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-12-07 06:11
I have a Legere question and I thought it best to put it at the end of a recent thread on the subject.
As far as the differences between the different Legere models- Quebec, German, Saxophone models- are the differences in cut only. Are they all made from the same material or is a different plastic used for different models??
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Author: MalcolmH
Date: 2007-12-07 07:24
Im using a Vandoren Optimum Lig on a Walter Grabner K11 m/p. With this set up I use Vandoren Blue Box 4 (probably 33/4 by the time I've balanced and scraped so they play well.
Contrary to the Legere comparison charts I've found I need a 3/ 3.25 Legere reed (standard Cut)
I'm not happy with the Vandororan Lig with this set up, despite screwing down very firmly the reed will easily move from side to side, this maybe why the reeds are blowing hard.
Can anybody recommend a ligature that works with the Legere reeds.
Regards
Malcolm
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-12-07 08:59
I think David Spiegelthal made a good point (maybe not even intentional). I mean when he said he prefers good cane reeds. I don't think it is the best comparison between synthetic and cane reeds. I would compare Legere (or any other synthetic reed) to a specific reed regardless of what it is made of. That's because my experience is that I didn't like Legere more than my favorite cane reeds, but I liked them a lot more than some cane reeds.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2007-12-07 11:29
I also prefer a good cane reed. But, I tend to play a lot of long weddings, and having a reed that plays the same over a 4 hour period is a big advantage. While currently playing on cane reeds, I got about 60 weddings from two Fibracells several years ago. They can be worked, similar to cane reeds. I ran a couple that did not play especially well through my Reed Wizard, with results similar to cane reeds.
The problem I had with playing on synthetic reeds exclusively, was that they do deteriorate, but at a much, much slower rate than cane reeds. So, my lip gradually adapted, over months of playing, to an imperceptably softer reed, until the reed was so soft that it was not particularly healthy for me to play on. Realizing there was a problem, I put on the last almost-spent cane reed I had used, and was shocked at how well it played. So, I would be careful about using these things exclusively.
I found that the sound of synthetic reeds not especially appealing, but the impartial tone judge (my wife) said that the difference between cane and synthetic reeds was not significant, and my bandleaders also had no qualms about the sound. However, as they say, "your results may vary."
I just ordered some more of both Fibracells and Legeres to try, not because I have many weddings coming up (things are very dry here), but because the manufacturer of the cane reeds I have been using for the last few years has changed to a design that I don't like, and it is time to go hunting again.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-12-07 13:22
I just came across this thread again. It's my understanding that all Legere reeds are made from the same material. The differences are in the cut or profile of the reed.
As I mentioned on another thread, Legere now makes 4 kinds of soprano clarinet reeds (excluding the student model): regular, Quebec, Ontario, and German.
I've tried all 4. My personal favorite is the Quebec. It gives me the exact tonal qualities I want....even compared with my favorite cane reeds. Coming in second, for me, is the Ontario. The Ontario is also known as the 3-dot prototype. It's a superb reed; however, I prefer the thicker cut of the Quebec. For whatever reason(s), I do not like the regular Legere Bb clarinet reed at all. Finally, the German reed -- it's similar to a Vandoren White Master (not the Black Master). It's cut does not work on my mouthpieces.
I highly recommend that if one wants to get the best possible sound and level of performance with Legere reeds that you try Quebec and/or Ontario.
There are times when I dust off my favorite cane reeds and do a "sanity test" in comparing them to Legere. The cane reeds sound really good to my ears at first. But, after 15-20 minutes of playing I begin to hear qualities in my sound that bother me. I then switch back to Legere Quebec and I'm 100% happy.
One of the key things in using Legere reeds is having a good match between them and the mouthpiece facing. There is an especially good match between Legere Quebec and Walter Grabner's Kaspar mouthpieces. I've also had good results with Legere on Gregory Smith's mouthpiece as well as others. On the downside, I've had terrible results with Legere on some mouthpieces. I think that it comes down to trial & error to see what works.
Ralph,
It's important that one use Legere reeds in rotation. I normally have 3-4 in my reed cases. Legere reeds soften after about an hour of heavy playing. This is documented on the Legere web site. As a standard procedure I rotate Legere reeds after an hour. Personally, I don't think of it as being a big deal. Then, every month I do a play test on all of my performance reeds, retire any that don't play as well as the others, and bring in a new reed(s). This system works very well for me. Normally, Legere reeds last a good number of months for me before they are retired.
Malcom,
Your question about ligatures raises an important point. I've found that some ligatures do not seal Legere reeds correctly....especially, along the side rails. This can result in the Legere reed feeling much stiffer and harder to play. The Vandoren Masters ligature works very well with Legere. Even better, in my experience, is the Vandoren Klassik string ligature. I absolute love the Klassik! It's made noticable differences in my sound, projection, and response. I wish that Vandoren would make a Klassik for bass clarinet!
Roger
Post Edited (2007-12-07 13:26)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-12-07 14:04
I don't know if Roberto's has them. Check there.
One of the best on-line shops I've found to order Legere reeds is 1stopclarinet.com. It's the only place I know of in the US that has the Ontario and German Legere reeds.
Besides 1stopclarinet, quite a few other on-line shops have the Quebec....such as Muncy, WWBW, Etc.
If you can't find Quebec reeds in NYC order them from an on-line shop.
Post Edited (2007-12-07 14:05)
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-12-07 14:06
I tried about 25 Legere regular and Quebec #3. I like the Quebec better. Some differences in all 25, but minor. All good, but I still prefer Rue 56 VD.
richard smith
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2007-12-07 14:37
An objective suggestion may be to go to Richard Hawkins website. He has many examples of his performance of many works, many being quite definitive. When I asked him, he told me that all were made with Legere. I felt the sound was a bit diffuse, but still, the reed will play the big standard clarinet works.
But still, after many many legere reeds of all dots and cuts, the cane reed is simply more responsive with more subtlety,if you will,at least for me. I recall seeing the chart Legere posts on its website showing the similar waves made by the Legere compared to cane. In the chart all the Legere waves are larger,though completey parallel to those of cane, which translates perfectly for my understanding.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-12-07 16:37
Sherman,
I'm trying to see what you are seeing in the Legere chart.
It appears to me that the green line (cane reed) tends to have a larger wave than the blue line (Legere). At least, at first. However, in the example the relationship changes in places so I see Legere being larger than cane. Never the less, they are mostly running parallel as you said.
http://www.legere.com/science.htm
Aside from the chart, in the performed Legere vs cane samples on the Legere site I preferred the sound of Legere in the legato example and cane in the stacato example. So, I think we're coming out in the same place.
Roger
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2007-12-08 01:28
Roger,
Thanks for the information. Given what you said, and the craziness at weddings, there may not be time to change reeds every hour. and Legeres may not be for me. I have some on order, though, and will try to work with them.
The Legere people explained to me that their reeds are all cut to the same shapes on computer numerically controlled (CNC) mills. Different strengths are generated by varying the the resin compound formulation.
Thanks,
Ralph
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2007-12-08 14:16
Ralph,
Whenever I play a gig there is always a break at some point. I use the break to change reeds. Also, the one hour (as written about by Guy Legere) is not a hard and fast rule. It depends upon a number of factors. I've gone up to 2 hours on a Legere tenor sax reed in big band playing before I noticed a softening. Legere is definitely worth a try to see if it works for you. For me, they are a doubler's dream come true.
I think that I remember reading how the different strengths are due to the material itself. Thanks for the reminder. But, just to be clear, the different Legere models (ie, Quebec, Ontario, etc) do indeed have different profiles. It's easy to tell one model from another by simply feeling the length of the vamp with your thumb.
Roger
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