 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-22 12:58
Dr. Omar Henderson of Doctor's Products is currently completing the final field testing of his latest product Grenad-Oil®
As explained to me, this is the first faithful recreation of the natural oil found in Grenadilla wood and is now the closest choice available to replenish the actual lost natural oils in grenadilla instruments.
By using modern scientific techniques, Dr Henderson has accurately measured the chemical content and recreated the oil composition using pure compounds and extracts from actual grenadilla wood and now offers this high end product for the discerning musician.
I was one of a panel of volunteer testers who was asked to try the new Grenad-Oil® for our initial impressions and opinions.
Although the long term benefits of any oil are the subject of much discussion, these were some of my thoughts and findings after testing and using of the Grenad-Oil® product:
- The oil had a pleasant nutty aroma and is thoughtfully packaged in an amber bottle to help provide a long shelf life.
- Testing of the oil on both the bore and exterior surface of the clarinet showed that it absorbed into the wood with ease, leaving a nice, even sheen.
- The depth of the natural wood grain was highlighted and more apparent after oiling
With this brief, superficial testing it is obviously impossible to determine long term benefits and effects, but for those who do regularly oil their instruments and feel that replenishing a grenadilla clarinet with actual grenadilla oil makes sense, then this would be a product worth investigating.
If you have questions (scientific, chemical, or consumer related) about this new product, Dr Henderson has agreed to answer them personally off-line at doctorsprod@mindspring.com and perhaps make a future posting on the bulletin board if questions arise after the product is released.
Perhaps others who are also currently testing this product will add their impressions.
Disclaimer - the testing panel of musicians, educators and repair technicians was strictly voluntary and no one was compensated for their time or effort...GBK
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-22 16:47
What about oil made from Soy? I ran into some soy oil marketed as a lubricant for french horns but since it is not petroleum based I don't see why this stuff can't go down the bore of a clarinet.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-08-22 17:16
(Disclaimer - Doctor's Products is the maker of Grenad-Oil® and Bore Doctor)
It is hard to determine a self life of a organic product but Bore Doctor, a mixture of plant derived oils, has the same cocktail of powerful antioxidants in it as Grenad-Oil® and quality control samples over 8 years stored in my unheated or cooled garage in GA (probably -5 to +40 degrees C) have shown no rancidity or other evidence of degredation over time.
Paul, you can put anything on your clarinet that you wish and a plant derived oil is probably better than petroleum based oils but there are certain plant derived and nut oils that have been proven over time to replentish and protect wood - Soy is not one of them. The genesis of Grenad-Oil® was a scientific challenge for me and a desire for a product by some that do not want to put anything foreign (bore oil) on their instruments.
I will be glad to answer any scientific or commercial questions by email.
L. Omar Henderson
http://www.doctorsprod.com (hopefully back on the air soon)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-08-22 18:23
so why are petroleum based oils inferior to natural oils? just wanted a little info on that.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-08-22 19:04
(Disclaimer- I sell plant derived and genuine Grenadilla oils)
Petroleum based oils will destroy the structure of wood over time - my own experimental evidence.
The natural oils in plants have the unique ability to bind with and interact with water - otherwise the plant would not survive - but petroleum oils eschew and do not interact with water. A certain moisture and oil content is IMO necessary for the structure, shape, and resonance qualities of wood. Plant oils offer a unique water buffering ability, not petroleum oils which will displace water, in that excess water is easily given up but a certain amount is tightly bound to the surface of the plant oil molecule which takes a large amount of energy (drying) to displace.
Plant and nut oils have over the centuries been used to preserve and protect fine wood objects.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-08-22 22:22
Glen -
The real question is whether Grenad-Oil® made an improvement (or any change at all) in the way the instrument plays. And how do the results compare with Bore Doctor, Omar's other preparation.
Curious Clarinetists Want to Know.
Ken Shaw
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-08-22 22:56
i'm pretty sure that the oil is used to better PRESERVE the instrument, not necessarily improve the sound. petroleum products which i agree do deteriorates the wood a little (but it also cleans a little at the same time).
thanks for the response
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-23 03:49
Ken Shaw wrote:
> The real question is whether Grenad-Oil® made an
> improvement (or any change at all) in the way the instrument plays.
> And how do the results compare with Bore Doctor,
> Omar's other preparation
I rarely oil my clarinets, but when I have, I have used the Bore Doctor oil without any problem. I initially choose to use Bore Doctor because of the natural plant oils that it contains. Then again, I have never experienced any cracking in any of the numerous clarinets I own - those that have been oiled and those that have not. So I would probably say, that in my mind, the jury is still out as to whether oiling is absolutely necessary.
That being said, I think that if one is to use oil, it would probably make the most sense to use an oil which is as close to the original grenadilla oil as possible. Omar's new product would fall into that category.
In our testing we were instructed to do side by side comparison tests with both the Bore Doctor oil and the new Grenad-Oil®.
To my eyes the Grenad-Oil® absorbed into the wood at a faster rate, left a nicer sheen to the wood and brought out the depth of the natural wood grain.
There was no change to the way the instrument played. The Opperman Intervallic Permutations continued to give me trouble. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-08-23 04:16
Glenn,
Was it clear that most of the oil was being absorbed into the wood as opposed, e.g., to evaporating?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-23 04:49
Jack -
No it was not clear if the oil was 100% absorbed or if there was some evaporation involved.
As I previously said, we were told to do side by side comparison tests on one part of the clarinet (the bell was suggested) using Bore Doctor, Grenad-Oil®, and any other bore oil we had available. I used Micro bore oil.
I used Buffet bells and barrels for my testing.
After letting the parts sit the required 12 hours I could comfortably say that the Micro bore oil had the most oil still remaining on the surface. The Bore Doctor had significantly less remaining, and the Grenad-Oil® was practically all gone.
As instructed, after buffing the wood surfaces with clean cloths, the Micro oil still left a greasy residue and feel to the surface, the Bore Doctor left a nice matte finish to the wood and the Grenad-Oil® left a higher gloss/sheen. To my eyes it was akin to the wood being polished.
What all that means as to absorption vs evaporation, perhaps Omar can scientifically explain ...GBK
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2007-08-23 10:36
(Disclaimer, I am the maker of Grenad-Oil and Bore Doctor)
Jack, an explanation from Wikipedia: Vapor pressure is the pressure of a vapor in equilibrium with its non-vapor phases. All solids and liquids have a tendency to evaporate to a gaseous form, and all gases have a tendency to condense back. At any given temperature, for a particular substance, there is a partial pressure at which the gas of that substance is in dynamic equilibrium with its liquid or solid forms. This is the vapor pressure of that substance at that temperature.
The ingredients in Bore Doctor and Grenad-Oil are primarily (97.4% for Grenad-Oil) fatty acids which make up a plant derived oil. This oil has a low vapor pressure which means that it evaporates very slowly at room temperature. Short chain carbon substances will have a high vapor pressure (the volatile organic compounds in some petroleum products) and will evaporate quickly. Some petroleum based bore oils contain VOCs and give the impression that they are being absorbed but in reality they are turning into gas and evaporating.
At moderate room temperature both Bore Doctor and Grenad-Oil are absorbed into the wood and the disappearance is not due to evaporation. The fatty acid make up of Grenadilla-Oil is unique in the plant oil group and has a large content of poly-unsaturated fatty acids, which in my experience penetrate wood much more quickly than saturated fatty acids (just an experimental observation - I have some theories but these are beyond the scope of this post)
Absorption into the wood is very different event than going away because of evaporation as you suggest. Both Bore Doctor and Grenad-Oil are absorbed into wood quickly, most petroleum based bore oils are not.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2007-08-23 23:41)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-08-23 15:36
Most important to me:
Does Grenad-Oil alter the surface tension of the bore to the point where water bypasses the C#/G#, Bb/Eb and A tone holes?
Bob Phillips
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-23 16:25
I'm just "lurking in the wings" of this interesting/enlightening Physical CHEMical discussion of ab[ad?]sorption and evaporation, of CHO vs HC oil-type compounds, but am in agreement that CHO's such as the natural plant/wood oils are to be preferred. I reserve the use of HC's and alcohols for cleaning purposes, "nuff for naow. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-08-23 23:24
Attachment: GRENADINE%20750.jpg (11k)
OK Omar is really on to something.
Look out, martini craze, here comes ..........see jpg.
Apparently the stuff has pomegrante properties....all natural.
Aint it 'sposed to be, um, a passion "enhancer" too?
http://www.webtender.com/db/ingred/82
Disclaimer.....I never mixed a drink for Dr Henderson.
"Binge responsibly"
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2007-08-23 23:29)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-24 13:11
Many TKS, Allan - I just didn't realize the magnitude of uses for this good? [natural] product. Was relieved to read of a couple of Scottish drinks which profit from this Grenadi --. Will have to see if we have some left, BUT, what will it do for our "dried-out" wood clarinets. Too much water? For me, its a great day when I learn something, ?NEW? It should alter the surface [and inner] tensions, Bob. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-08-24 20:29
Naylor has written much on the subject of oil treatment for grenadilla wood, for work and data he accumulated over a period of about 40 years. . He has an internet site.
richard smith
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-25 15:38
Naylor: http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/
Omar has also written a huge amount - some very technical, in this very forum. Easily found with a search for Omar Henderson posts.
IMO we are fortunate indeed to have his educated expertise, and the results of his extensive research freely provided. And also his dedication to providing better products for clarinet players.
Post Edited (2007-08-25 15:41)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2007-09-11 05:13
>Does Grenad-Oil alter the surface tension of the bore to the point where >water bypasses the C#/G#, Bb/Eb and A tone holes?
I tried it around the C#/G# tone hole, 4,5 days ago.
It was pouring rain today, very humid.
Today the lower trill key filled up with water , the C# key was fine. 1974 R13.
This is simiilar to what happens when I use a bit of bore doctor oil around this hole. It usually helps for a few weeks, then I have gurgling C# issues again. Whether or not this new oil is better in this regard only time will tell. I'll report back in another few weeks.
I haven't had time to do the side by side tests described in the original post ; hopefully I will this weekend.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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