 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2007-08-20 05:48
In the Klose book, page 74, there is a curious page titled "Change of fingering on the same note." It gives some odd fingerings (that sound rather poor, at least for me) for switching fingerings on a repeated note, mostly on near-top-of-the-staff E through C.
I've long assumed this is some obsolete technique, valid perhaps for some older style or instruments, as I've never had a teacher who knew what it was talking about. However, I'd be interested in hearing the history behind it, if anyone here knows.
Perhaps in the late 1800s, a simple tongue stroke did not provide the desired effect on these notes? Or, is it a subtle pitch alteration to match the chord or inflect a melody line in some way?
Thanks!
Eddie
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-08-20 07:49
On the contrary, it is often used as a contemporary technique. Played quickly, it is commonly referred to as a "color trill," and, if every note is shown, will usually be notated with a small "o" above every other note.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kilo
Date: 2007-08-20 10:33
The technique mimics the sonority of string instruments where repeated notes can be played on separate strings to produce subtle changes of tone.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-20 11:45
Or like on oboe/cor playing when using a harmonic fingering instead of the usual short fingering for a different tone colour (and more stability and substance when played at pp) eg. upper register A played as 8ve2 xxx|xxx instead of the usual 8ve2 xxo|ooo.
Do many clarinet players overblow the B over the break for an alternative G? Though a lot of the overblown upper register notes between fingered B and Eb (as alternatives to the upper notes in te upper register) aren't the best for tuning, though they are useful in certain instances to make fast passages easier, especially when it does away with crossing the break from the altissimo down to the upper register for sake of a few notes, and keping the tone colour the same.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-20 13:10
Before reading EEB's, kilo's, and Chris' posts, my thots were of the "slide-fingerings" [? used mainly on Alberts etc ?] ,or as exchanges in "cross-fingering" situations where the Ab/Eb is not "doubled". I recall an oboe lesson by an old pro where he explained the use of [the oboe's] harmonics, and then experimenting on them for cl and sax, made little use of them tho !! Will find and read my OLD Klose. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-08-20 13:32
Chris, I use the overblown B for high G almost exclusively. I'm just lazy I guess, but on my horn I'm used to it and don't really have any intonation issues. I also like the timbre a whole lot!
As far as the general topic of the posts, another place where same-note fingering changes happen is in Bulgarian wedding music, most prominently by Ivo Papazov (sometimes with an "s" instead of the "z"). This technique in that style comes from the Bulgarian flute (kaval) playing in which finger articulations are more common than tongue articulations. It also for both kaval and clarinet can produce the characteristic "ornaments" which they use to rhythmically and audibly subdivide longer notes.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-08-20 14:12
I can't find my Klose but, since I somehow find it hard to imagine that he had color trills or Bulgarian wedding music in mind when he wrote his book , let me suggest a couple of other reasons. One would be to move from a less secure to a more secure fingering when the former was made necessary by the note preceding the repeated notes. Another would be to facilitate the note following the repeated notes.
This might have been particularly important for simple-system clarinets. However, given that Klose was involved in the development of the Boehm system clarinet, simple-system considerations may not have been an issue for him. I wonder if current editions of his book indicate which system he originally wrote for.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-08-20 16:37
John Bruce Yeh of the Chicago Symphony uses both the side Bb and the alternate Bb (using the little banana key) when playing Bolero on Eb clarinet. He alternates between the two fingerings each time the note is repeated.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-20 18:24
FWIMBW, My Klose, Carl F. Edition, Rev. and Enl'g'd by C L Staats [1898 !!], a "museum piece" ??, has this enigmatic language on pg 84, "There are certain effects very agreeable upon stringed inst's ---", so, yes, I think he is talking about "tone color" and ?grace notes??. His several fingering examples appear to be for an "Albert" , not a Boehm, [rt hand fork vs 1,2] , and others which MAY give half tones, will have to try out on an oldie !! The next page begins with "Taste and Expression ---". So, it looks like [here] he and Staats were trying to reproduce string "tricks" on the turn-of-century cls. Fun, Comments? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-08-20 18:46
Right.......an aside........... my copy of The Klose Clarinet School was purchased in 1962 and cost 34/-.......ie. Thirty-four shillings. Many of us here in UK and beyond, will remember the days before decimalisation in 1971, but for those who have no concept this was £1.14s.0d. In today's decimalised Sterling, this amounts to £1.70p. At today's exchange rates that amounts to $3.19 USD or 2.37 Euro. This comparison is of course completely futile, as the concept of inflation over the last 45 yrs will have racked up the numbers.
Anyway, inside front page.... "Copyright 1906, Hawkes Son Ltd " ...then .... "the present edition is a free translation and adaptation of the original edition of the "Method pour Clarinette" published in 1845."
Can't find an edition number though.
Did decimalisation affect the number of pages in a book too ?
My copy shows this interesting page to be page 100 !! This is in the form of 2 duets, with alt fingerings for the top part. Does this coincide with page 74 of your edition eddiec ?
Just off to have a go at page 100.
Bob T
Update.........
OK........ I've looked at and played this page for some time. I've found no "agreeable effect" (as stated) to be gained by using them. Most are so far away pitchwise as to be unhelpful, whilst a few play a different note completely, so I wonder if this relates to a "simple" system clar, of which I have no experience.
However, I'm a great believer in finding hidden gems and BINGO !................ what was suggested as an alternative for C nat above the stave, turns out to be a fabulous, centred, round, stable and easily played B nat. At least on my clars (both A and Bb). Have not tried it on C, Eb or bass yet, but I'm happy with my new treasure.
To wit...... T,S xox/xxx
BobT
BobT
Post Edited (2007-08-20 20:33)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-20 20:51
I began a post, but my AOL Call Alert interrupted [I guess?] posting, SO, my last page is 116, Duets, YES, is yours for Boehm? I believe mine is for Albert, will chck manaya [Tues]. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-08-20 21:31
OK Don, my Klose shows layout and fingering charts for both Boehm and "Simple System". my last page is 191.
Inside front cover contains the inscription............
"Best Wishes 1962,
Uncle Bob"
I suspect you won't have that, as that's MY Uncle Bob, who was so encouraging to me. However, that may be the only unique thing about it !
It's edited by Charles Draper and John Fitz-Gerald.
I've transcribed a couple of the last duets for clar Bassoon duets and they work really well.
BobT
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2007-08-21 17:05
Change of fingering can be very helpful with intonation. The best example I can think of is the long F# in "Abime des oiseaux" by Messiaen. The only practical and effective way I know to keep the intonation with a real crescendo from pp to ffff is by chnging the fingering.
Sarah
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-21 23:34
As for changing the fingering on the same note, I sometimes do this on upper register Bb or F# depending how I got to that note and how to get from it to the following one in the smoothest manner.
I can't give an example off the top of my head right now, but I will once I've had some sleep.
Goodnight.
Oh, before I zonk out - one example, from an upper register G to a Bb using the forked fingering as on full Boehms fitted with the forked Bb mechanism (xox|ooo), then switching from forked Bb (xxo|Bb ooo) to side Bb to play an A. But only if the Bb is repeated and a good deal of time allows.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2007-08-22 01:12
Thanks for all the replies.
I understand there are many reasons to change fingerings on the same note, but I don't think this is what Klose had in mind. There's no technical reason to use his fingerings; most sound terrible and some are quite awkward.
For those without the benefit of the book with them... For example, all above the break,
E as XXX X0X 3 (changing to normal)
F as XXX 0XX 3 (changing to normal)
G as XXX X00 or XXX X0X to XXX 0.0 (halfhole, none of these sound a G)
A as X0X 00X (changing to normal)
B as 0X0 000
Below the break,
B as 00X 000 + the two long RH levers
I don't have my Klose chart but I think 3 is the C/F lever.
Based on how poor or outright wrong these sound, I'm thinking they have to be simple system fingerings. As to why one would change fingerings on simple arpeggio figures (G-C-E-E D, G-C-G-G-F) and scales, I really don't know. He says the change must "not cause the slighttest interruption in the vibration of sound", so if it can't be heard, and it isn't technically necessary, I don't get the point.
So... thank goodness for Boehm!
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