 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: vitoclarinet
Date: 2007-08-13 20:42
Hello there everyone!
I've picked up on clarinet again recently, after 2 loong months. For some reason, my tonguing has gotten a LOT BETTER(i thank some people on this board), but my pinky problem came back! I don't know if this occurs to all players, but for me, no matter how hard I try to relax my pinky(the right one), it never works, and it only gets tense after a long hour of practicing. Even after 10 minutes into practice, my right pinky gets all tense and worked up, and when I try to bend it like a ballerina would bend her toes(that's the analogy my teacher used), it makes a cracking noise. For a long time I was puzzled as to why only my right pinky was doing this and not the left pinky(left pinky works just fine), but I think I've finally found the solution- when I put all my fingers together and hold it up, my left pinky sort of bends it "inward", whereas my right pinky sort of bends "outward", and sort of "stays it by itself" while all the other fingers are together. Could this be the reason for my tense pinky? Any advice would be greatly welcomed! I especially feel pain when I'm playing Eb(altissimo register) and high C# right hand.
Again, thank you for all your help!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2007-08-13 20:47
The position of your right thumb may have a good deal to do with this...
Try one of the thumbrests that allows a more open hand position or a claricord to take some of the weight.
The right hand does most of the work to just hold the clarinet in place... no wonder the pinky works so hard!
It may also help to have your thumbrest moved down, closer to the bell.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-13 21:01
vitoclarinet,
I feel your pain. My two pinkies are "inward benders" (impossible to play guitar), and it took me quite a while (a year or so) to become comfortable with pinky acrobatics.
Two things that helped:
- do adjust your thumbrest. A millimeter up or down can make a world of a difference.
- play a lot of E-F-G#-F#-E-F-...patterns (chalumeau) just using your right pinky. It simply must become more agile, and there's not a lot else than fingering practice you can do. Do this for two minutes at the beginning and the end of your practice session, and in between whenever you feel your pinky getting tired. (Similar for the left hand).
If you think the problem is hardware related (ie your skeleton), you might want to see an orthopaedist or ask a physiotherapist about suitable exercises.
(fixed typos)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-08-13 21:01)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-13 21:22
The weight of the clarinet on the end of the thumb is really too much for many people.
A neckstrap would take much of the weight off the thumb, relax the hand, and allow not only for your pinky to be relaxed but would also allow the other digits of the right hand to move more quickly by virtue of having less tension.
If you have an adjustable thumb rest, I would advise moving it up. If you extend your right hand out as if you were going to pick up a bottle of water (or anything else cylindrical) you will notice that your thumb is almost even with the first finger.
Now hold your clarinet ready to play. "Freeze" your right hand and remove the clarinet...you'll see the thumb is probably between you second and third fingers. Way too low.
I also agree with advice above about thumbrests that open the right hand by widening it's grip...like Tom Ridenour's Thumb Saddle.
Good luck!
James
PS...there is no reason to play with pain or discomfort!
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-08-13 21:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-14 01:23
Dear Gnothi,
Again with the thumb opposite the index finger. If the bottle of water weighed as much as a clarinet and we only picked it up with our right thumb, the thumb would probably be closer to opposition with the ring finger.
Enough for sarcasm. I realize there are SOME out there who advocate "HOLDING UP" the clarinet with the thumb muscles so the thumb is sticking out perpendicularly. If you do this and this is not causing other undue strain, then perhaps you can impose a placement for your right hand vis-a-vis the thumbrest and finger angle AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH FREE ACCESS TO THE TWO LOWER SIDEKEYS.
As for the strain, maybe there is too much isometric strain. Ensure that you are relaxed, and only using the "curling muscles" for the "down" and the "opening" muscles for the "up," not both at the same time.
..........just my two cents,
.......................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-14 02:02
Hello Paul,
I just picked up my music stand with all of its' accoutrements (much more than a clarinet weighs) and my thumb was equal and above my first finger. The end of my thumb was wrapped over the knuckle closest to my first-finger-nail.
I have small hands in comparison to some, and I can access all of the keys that are necessary for the right hand. Including the two side keys and full command of the right hand pinky assembly. I do not council nor teach any hand position that compromises function.
I am relaxed as I play (far more relaxed with the neckstrap). Vitoclarinet is not. A neckstrap is an appropriate OPTION for them to consider.
My name is James, and not the ancient conjugation of Knowledge/recognition.
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pitqueen
Date: 2007-08-14 03:08
This started happening to me right before my senior recital. I didn't know what to do until visiting a hand doctor for something else, and explaining this problem as well. My problem did start with the thunb. When I push into the clarinet more and use the muscle in the palm of the hand, and keep the hand in a natural a position as possible it is ok. After playing for a few hours it will still want to lock up. The doctor told me it is the ligaments in the pinky that do it. He said the tendons that run to the thumb twist up the front of the arm and connect on the outer side of the elbow. The ligaments and tendons of the pinky also go there, so when my thumb tendons flare up, it isn't long before the pinky flares up as well. It is a vicious circle, but as relaxed and natural as the hand can be helps a lot!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-14 13:23
Dear Gnothi (yeah, I know),
My point was that the weight of the clarinet "ON" the thumb (not were your thumb is when you grasp something) naturally causes it to sag if you do not counter gravity with your thumb muscles.
As Pitqueen states, relaxed hand/fingers is the way to go. So if your thumb is relaxed.........with a clarinet sitting upon it...........it will hang low. If you indeed have an adjustable thumbrest, why not try the opposite of what you have been doing and see if a neckstrap is even necessary.
Again, just a thought, not a dictum.
..............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-15 02:09
Hello Paul,
I realized that there were things that I disagreed with that I didn’t address earlier. So I am starting my portion of this argument over for clarity’s sake.
Quote:
If you indeed have an adjustable thumbrest, why not try the opposite of what you have been doing and see if a neckstrap is even necessary.
I gave this a whirl for some time today, and journeyed back to a time when I struggled with discomfort and an ever increasing amount of tension traveling up my arm.
Since we do not know each other, I will offer that I have studied Alexander technique and Feldenkrais’ method. I know how to identify and release tension.
Quote:
I realize there are SOME out there who advocate "HOLDING UP" the clarinet with the thumb muscles so the thumb is sticking out perpendicularly.
I have never asserted that I overexert my thumb upwards while holding the clarinet. I have never mentioned perpendicularity. This is your misinterpretation of my wanting the position of the thumbrest as high as it can go (and higher!)
Just because the thumbrest is higher doesn’t mean one is pressing up on it more!
Now the thumb must exert force equal to the downward weight of the clarinet to hold the clarinet in place in front of us, but this is true no matter what thumbrest you use or where you prefer your thumb to be, up or down.
Quote:
As for the strain, maybe there is too much isometric strain.
Strain is a pejorative adjective meaning "muscle tissue damage”, can we agree on that?
Isometric is an adjective describing muscle contraction which generates tension/force without there being movement in the muscles in question.
This statement means you concede that the weight of the clarinet on the thumb is greater than it should be. Did you mean to say this?
Quote:
If you do [“hold” clarinet “up” with thumb] and this is not causing other undue strain, then perhaps you can impose a placement for your right hand vis-a-vis the thumbrest and finger angle AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH FREE ACCESS TO THE TWO LOWER SIDEKEYS.
Why, if you approach the clarinet this way, do you have to IMPOSE a placement? What a tension filled word! Are you implying that “holding up” the clarinet with the thumb interferes with access to the side keys?
I see many students whose thumbs have “sagged” (your verbiage) comfortably and they manage the weight easily…because they have the right hand first finger holding the clarinet up with the Eb/D# sidekey, along with the thumb under the thumbrest!
With or without the neckstrap and/or thumb rest in any position, I can achieve proper hand position. Some positions and circumstances create a greater amount of wear and tear than others, and some provide great benefit.
We agree that everyone operates most efficiently when most relaxed.
Quote:
My point was that the weight of the clarinet "ON" the thumb (not were your thumb is when you grasp something) naturally causes it to sag if you do not counter gravity with your thumb muscles.
(Regardless of where your thumbrest is the thumb muscles {along with arm and shoulder muscles} are countering gravity. With a neckstrap, they counter less…decreasing tension.)
I performed that way for years. The thumb sagged, the wrist tensed, the shoulder ached. It doesn’t matter whether your thumb is equal to first finger or beneath second finger, the force at the end of the thumb is equal. The force across the joint, however, is not the same! The more a joint is out of natural position the greater the force is exerted through the joint.
Also, with the thumb so low the thumb’s extensors are exerting themselves considerably more than the thumb’s flexors. This imbalance creates and increases tension.
Said again, with the thumbrest as they come or lower there is a greater amount of flexion in the thumb muscles, and the weight of the clarinet increases the compressive force within the thumb joint more greatly than in a more natural position (meaning the thumb as high as first finger).
All that said, I would rather use a neckstrap and have a relaxed thumb that is closer to natural hand position (= less tension) than bear the weight relaxed and sacrifice speed/evenness/accuracy.
The eefer is the only clarinet that I play without a neckstrap. I wonder if Daphnes and Chloe is easier for me on bass because the thumbrest is positioned more appropriately? Yes…along with being wider which mitigates tension AND THE FACT THAT THE THUMB DOESN’T HAVE TO SUPPORT ANYTHING!
I am not asserting that anyone change something that works well for them. And it is obvious that many of you have musculatures that allow you to play the clarinet without discomfort. But some of us don’t! (And what works for Jon Manasse…)
Paul, we obviously are personally unfamiliar with one another. I know you only from your posts. I don’t recall you responding before with this level of condescension. Why are you so adamantly opposed to the neckstrap and/or high thumbrest position?
James (who knows himself) Tobin
Thanks Ellen Oswalt for her expertise as Physical Therapist (and who is not a musician in any way.)
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-08-15 02:24)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-15 02:56
Quote:
Also, with the thumb so low the thumb’s extensors are exerting themselves considerably more than the thumb’s flexors. This imbalance
creates and increases tension.
Quick anatomy question: the extensors are located on the palm side and the flexors are located on the topside of the hand?
When my thumb is too low (as soon as it reaches the middle finger actually) I automatically feel tension in the palm of my hand - which translates into slower action in the rest of my fingers. When my thumbrest is higher, I feel no tension at all in the palm - I am actually experimenting with raising the thumbrest a bit higher on my A clarinet, as I feel more tension on that horn probably due to the added weight.
I personally don't like to use a neck strap, as I hate all things tugging on my neck...like wearing a Halter top - cannot stand them. Some people do find neck straps helpful, and almost neccessary.
Post Edited (2007-08-15 02:58)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-15 03:09
Hello Grifffinity,
I experience that tension not in the palm of my hand, but on the opposite side near the wrist. Tension spreads like the plague!
Extend your right hand as if to shake another person's:
The extensors allow your thumb to open and rise towards the sky. The flexors allow your thumb to close into your palm. They are not palmside or opposite per se...
The extensors proceed down the arm and to the elbow. These are the muscles, closest to the thumb, that (generally) support the weight of the clarinet. Knowing this it makes a lot of sense that these muscles, overexerted, spread tension up the arm.
James
PS...Vitoclarinet, you feel tension in your right pinky (and not the left) because it is your right hand that bears the weight of the clarinet. I'm sorry that I didn't answer that question earlier.
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-08-15 04:21)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-15 11:31
Dear Jim,
Sorry for the post submitted with a smirk. It was only a smirk, not intended in any way to be an assault.
As for the thumb extensors, I can only say from my experience that there are NO right thumb extensors coming into play whatsoever for me. I literally let the weight of the horn dictate where the thumb comes to rest. I suppose the "strain" for me is on the tendons, NOT the muscles.
Therefore I have no strain at all in either upward or downward movement of fingers of the right hand. My point, however, concerning the sidekeys is this: if your index finger sits "ABOVE" the lowest sidekey in the ready position, once you are playing and need to hit this key independently, the thumb muscles out of necessity become engaged to raise the clarinet (well, actually lower the hand since the clarinet is in your face) so that the key can actually be reached. This action MUST cause strain, and I merely point this out so that more of us can avoid unintentionally causing problems for ourselvs.
As for the remark I made about isometrics, I was trying to address a possible problem that may be faced by "VitoClarinet." There is a place for hyper-controlled finger movement for molto legato playing, but this is an exception not a rule.
.............Paul Aviles
Mea Culpa
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-16 13:45
(My computer is recently ate itself, and so I am currently about to reinstall the operating system after having paid someone to back up my hard drive...I guess you live and you learn!)
Hello Grifffinity,
You were completely right in that generalization that I wasn't ready to make. The flexors are in the palm of your hand, and the extensors are in the back of the hand!
Hello Paul,
Whenever I play the clarinet, I do not "hit" any keys. I am presuming that you don't either.
Whenever any finger touches/moves anything on the clarinet (or anything else we are holding we don't want to drop for that matter) there is a given amount of flexion of the wrist muscles to stabilize the hands/arms against the movement.
That being said the amount of force used to touch these sidekeys is no more or less than most other keys, unless one chooses to exert more in this place.
Strain = muscle tissue damage. I don't damage my hand any more or less touching these keys.
Whether or not your thumb is high or low: if your thumb doesn't just fold down (allowing your clarinet to drop to the floor) then the extensors are the tissue responsible for keeping the clarinet in place!
Obviously you do not "strain" with your current thumb position. There's no need for you to change anything!
But Vitoclarinet strains holding the instrument, it would be a good idea for them to move the thumbrest up, by a widening thumbrest, or purchase a neckstrap, or some combination of the three.
James
Gnothi Seauton
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-16 15:54
James,
This is actually a very worthwhile clarification about the thumb. I am supporting the weight of the horn on the side of my thumb. If it were to be either more of the palm side or the top side of the thumb then yes, there would be some extra muscle power engaged at the point where the thumb pivots off the palm. Since it is the side though, someone or something would have to literally break some part of my hand for it to fold allowing the clarinet to fall.
As for the sidekey I will try once more to clarify.
Set up as if you are about to play...now look down at the sidekeys. If your index finger is touching the second sidekey from the top, then it's way too high. That is, one cannot scrunch their hand smaller to get to the HIGHLY used Eb/Bb key so "other" accomodations are happening.
I am particular about this because I spent three years with wrist pain, expensive thumbrests (yes the "robocop" koiman) and neckstraps until I realized that the advice I got to raise the position of the thumbrest was the worst advice for me. The thumbrest position must not be looked at as simply the angle at which the right-hand fingers approach the clarinet. Thumbrest position is critical to reaching sidekeys and paddle keys comfortably, correctly.
I would go so far as to say, the standard placement (opposite center between first and second holes) is perfect unless you have very large hands (then it should be lower) or very small hands (then it should be a little higher).
But we all have to find what's best for ourselves.
.........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-16 22:27
Hello Aaron,
Having read the article, there are many things that Prof DeRoche believes that are exactly the same as Paul. I do not profess to play or teach as well as she, but she is incorrect about right hand thumb position in relation to the actual physiological dynamic.
Moving the thumb rest up does not mean that one presses up with the thumb!
Again, if I have the choice of playing the instrument with some degree of tension (from bearing the weight with one or two hands) even if that tension is not negative strain, or being completely relaxed to move as I will...I will take completely relaxed.
Hello Paul,
That was a bad description! My fault!
My thumb placement is as you describe yours...and still the extensors are involved in this case. They are involved no matter how you orient your thumb to the clarinet...obviously some positions more than others.
As far as the sidekeys, my hands are not large by any stretch of the imagination! And as I have said, my hand is in position regardless of thumbrest, neckstrap, etc. In teaching another, I would not counsel anyone to create a hand position overconcerned with the top two sidekeys. It is, as we agree, the lower to that need be used most often.
It is a wonderful thing that individuals come in so many shapes and sizes, and that there are so many methods which achieve the same goal.
Having thoroughly explored the topic, we can both agree to disagree on what works best for each other. We do agree on what is important, that the goal is relaxed, discomfort free hand position.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-08-16 22:36)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vitoclarinet
Date: 2007-08-17 17:09
Wow so many replies! I feel loved! thank you!
I think someone asked me if I have an adjustable thumbrest- no, I dont believe I do, and coming to think of it, I think the thumb rest is slightly bent(it's metal)to the right(maybe this is the cause of the problem? no clue).
I will definately try to get a neck strap- I was browsing on the internet earlier and I was surprised that they only cost like 5 dollars. Sounds like a bargain to me!
Again, thank you so much! Your comments/posts have been of great help! I'll check back often!
-vitoclarinet
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
