 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: musica
Date: 2007-08-10 17:32
How many of you play the cadenza as a 4 note pattern rather than the triplet as Peter Hadcock suggested in his The Working Clarinetist Excerpt Book? Thanks!
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-10 18:26
Hello Musica,
I honestly had never thought of it until now, but to pace the accelarando properly I feel the large metrical beats of the measure...which means that I'm thinking it in sextuplets.
I also chose to end on the alternate Bb (A with top side key 2).
It was the arppegiated grace notes that caused me the most trouble!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: am0032
Date: 2007-08-10 21:52
You might want to see how you like it on Bb clarinet. I had many difficulties playing it on A clarinet. It is more convenient to me landing on an A instead of Bb and on a high F instead of F#. The dominant 7th chords fall under my fingers a little easier as well.
Adam
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-10 22:01
Performing the music on Bb puts some of the notes in the Cat figure below the scope of the instrument, doesn't it? Especially before rehearsal 12?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-10 23:01
James is correct, that unless you have a full Boehm Bb with a low Eb, (as some used to) you would need to switch back and forth between Bb and A. I understand that there are many who do this. I also have spoken to quite a few players who tell me they do the cadenza on Bb.
I learned the part years ago on A. One time recently I was in an orchestra that gave me the Bb part. I asked for the A part, as I didn't want to relearn it.
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Author: musica
Date: 2007-08-10 23:59
I've tried it in Bb and it does work better and found using the top "a" key and
octave key for the high Eb grace note to the high F tied note works too.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-11 01:44
There are at least 3 different rental editions (Schirmer, Boosey/Hawkes, Kalmus) of Peter and the Wolf. There may be others.
If possible, avoid the Kalmus edition.
I've played a few of the rental editions and one of them (definitely not the Kalmus) puts the key signatures into the visually easier enharmonic alternative.
For example: at #6 - B major instead of Cb major.
At #20 (clarinet cadenza) the Kalmus edition and the Schirmer edition are written in Db major with numerous clumsy accidentals (and double flats), where as one of the other editions (Boosey?) is written in C major with more logical (and visually clearer) added accidentals.
Also, be aware of misprints in the A clarinet part of the Kalmus edition in the passages at #42 and #44.
Although he doesn't note which one he referenced, the Kalman Bloch Orchestral Clarinet excerpt book, volume 3 shows the (IMO) clearer edition of the cadenza ...GBK
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-08-11 14:45
I've played Peter and the Wolf many ways -- finally settled on switching to the Bb clarinet at a convenient rest before the cadenza and susequently back to the A for the rest of the piece. To quote Marcel Tabuteau: "Safety first!"
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-08-12 13:54
GBK:
There are no misprints in whatever edition the performing clarinetist has on his or her stand comes "showtime". Play it once and you'll know.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-12 14:21
sherman wrote:
> GBK:
> There are no misprints in whatever edition the performing
> clarinetist has on his or her stand comes "showtime". Play it
> once and you'll know.
Pretty obvious statement. But, having played off parts which other clarinetists had before me, it is curious that the misprints were never fixed on the music.
Didn't they know? Didn't they care?
Or worse, maybe they didn't hear it.
Misprints are a major annoyance and the sign of sloppy editing. After all these years, instead of just continuing to run copies off their same master plate, it would be nice for Kalmus to finally clean up their rental edition...GBK
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-08-12 18:03
Tobin:
Grace notes are themselves accents. This can help in the performance of those last three or four leaps preceded by said grace notes. Practice playing the graces much softer than the eighth, and think of the eighth as the arrival note, making it the place you are going . Practice this for each of the arrival notes. When done, your arrivals will be as written, crescendo and accelerando.
GBK:
Obvious, apparently, however I repeat, with the part in front of you regardless of a rental , it is the one you play. Any correcting is done by the conductor or the librarian.
Most established seasonal orchestras have libraries, editions of standards already having been purchased and corrected by librarians of the orchestra. If not, let the conductor make the change, a suggestion any clarinetist in such a position will understand.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2007-08-12 18:05)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-12 18:42
sherman wrote:
> Most established seasonal orchestras have libraries, editions
> of standards already having been purchased and corrected by
> librarians of the orchestra. If not, let the conductor make the
> change
If only it worked that way in the real world...GBK
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-08-12 21:20
GBK:
There is a real world, there really is. Some of us have seen it.
All should keep looking.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-13 02:36
Sherman -
Sometimes one has to climb down off the ivory tower and take a good look around.
The real world for 99% of us is playing in smaller regional orchestras, semi-pro pick up ensembles and commmunity groups.
Sure - it's not the NYP or Chicago, but the enthusiasm, level of musicianship and music making can often be quite good.
Do we have a library filled "with editions of standards, already having been purchased and corrected by librarians of the orchestra." (your words) ?
Not in the groups most of us play in.
Our librarians are already overworked constantly filling folders and just keeping track of 80+ sets of parts as well as coordinating rental music, when needed.
The only time I happen to get a rental part which has note corrections, is when it is a part I had used previously in a past performance, and I've already corrected it myself.
BTW - Most conductors that I have encountered (including some pretty well known "household names") do not have a clue as to which parts contain errors, unless they have been told by the principal player.
I'm sorry, but that is the real "real world."
...GBK
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Author: musica
Date: 2007-08-13 23:18
Thanks for all the insight. I too play with a regional orchestra and whatever
quintet, octet I can find. As far as the edition... it's whatever they can get their
hands on and that's what is put in the folders.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-08-14 02:52
GBK
Perhaps your real world, but not many that I know, and most conductors for whom I have played know the solo parts perfectly and correct them on the spot, and/or have a conference.
"Ivory Tower" is an over-used used cliche, having lost it meaning and power years ago.
If you use the collective pronoun,"us"or "we", you simply show that you do not stand for the majority, but only yourself.
There are as you have said, many levels, but one should aspire to avoid a "level" at the subterranean strata.
I conducted a University Orchestra for almost 20 years, in which we always had a librarian who marked parts and bowings.
As a very young man, I played many rental parts, all of which had been assiduously marked and corrected by many of the previous players. This was a way of communication, for we would always sign our parts, even leaving little fingering instructions or "glasses" drawn next to a tricky passage. I enjoyed getting these parts with their messages written by clarinetists whom I knew or would know sometime. (in pencil.,always)
Sherman Friedland
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-08-14 03:40
sherman wrote:
> GBK
> Perhaps your real world, but not many that I know,
The musical world that I participate in is the same world that everybody but the top 1% of the world participates in. Perhaps ask around and you'll see that my concerns and experiences are shared by MANY.
> and most
> conductors for whom I have played know the solo parts perfectly
> and correct them on the spot, and/or have a conference.
And I submit that there are many MORE conductors who due to a lack of rehearsal time and/or preparation not only do not know the solo parts, but hardly have a formalized concept of the complete score.
> "Ivory Tower" is an over-used used cliche, having lost it
> meaning and power years ago.
Ivory tower in this case refers to those that have been locked away in a university setting far too long.
> If you use the collective pronoun,"us"or "we", you simply show
> that you do not stand for the majority, but only yourself.
> There are as you have said, many levels, but one should aspire
> to avoid a "level" at the subterranean strata.
I'm sure that makes all the amateurs and re-starters who are currently playing at the "subterranean strata" (your cliche) feel great. Somehow, they have managed to find new musical enjoyment, daily, and the joy of playing has brought them back into the musical world, albeit at your compartmentalized "subterrranean level".
> I conducted a University Orchestra for almost 20 years, in
> which we always had a librarian who marked parts and bowings.
> As a very young man, I played many rental parts, all of which
> had been assiduously marked and corrected by many of the
> previous players. This was a way of communication, for we would
> always sign our parts, even leaving little fingering
> instructions or "glasses" drawn next to a tricky passage. I
> enjoyed getting these parts with their messages written by
> clarinetists whom I knew or would know sometime. (in
> pencil.,always)
With constant budget cuts, borrowed and previously loaned parts, the music I frequently see in orchestras and in pit work is covered with markings. Unfortunately, most of them are not only distracting, sloppy and careless, but downright annoying.
Two different real worlds, I guess...GBK
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-14 05:15
I have played in many regional orchestras, and other ensembles for many years. I have to admit that I have to agree with GBK on this one. While I would love to be able to say that all of the parts have been carefully edited and corrected, generally you get what you get.
The conductor often knows the part aurally, and makes necessary corrections in rehearsal as problems arise. Most conductors are not familiar with the individual written parts or particular editions as such. Often they don't get much choice as to which edition they can get, but it is a matter of what is available or what is affordable.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-08-14 15:55
GBK:
"The musical world that I participate in is the same world that everybody but the top 1% of the world participates in. Perhaps ask around and you'll see that my concerns and experiences are shared by MANY."
Which is it? 1% or MANY?
"I'm sure that makes all the amateurs and re-starters who are currently playing at the "subterranean strata" (your cliche) feel great. Somehow, they have managed to find new musical enjoyment, daily, and the joy of playing has brought them back into the musical world, albeit at your compartmentalized "subterrranean level". GBK
NO, you make a hasty generalization of what I said. Not only that but you imply that "subterranean strata" signifies all amateurs and restarters"GBK
That is not what I said. If you wish to distort, then do so.
In a previous posting you mentioned that you were the only one who corrected a part:
"The only time I happen to get a rental part which has note corrections, is when it is a part I had used previously in a past performance, and I've already corrected it myself." GBK
"constant budget cuts, borrowed and previously loaned parts, the music I frequently see in orchestras and in pit work is covered with markings. Unfortunately, most of them are not only distracting, sloppy and careless, but downright annoying."GBK
So, there it is. You need no questions, nor answers since you furnish them yourself, when you see fit.
I have literally hundreds of questions to answer and people to thank for their comments on my site.
I believe in the amateur and the restarter more than perhaps any other endeavor in which I engage. I write each day to these lovely people, answering their questions. I have amassed a site of more than 500 articles devoted to clarinet students, amateurs and restarters.
Therefore, I will answer no more of your misquotations, and fact twisting.
Have a nice day.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-14 17:07
I understand both GBK and Sherman's POV and they are two seperate realities. While attending school in Boston I had the opportunity to play on BSO parts and there is obviously a different standard to how those parts are handled. And of course, BSO and any top tier orchesta has a FT librarian who is making at least $75K a year. Our school did not have a hired librarian, rather it was a work study position granted to a Masters level string student. They barely had the time to work on bowing, let alone worry about the wind parts, and were relieved when we had to borrow BSO parts as there was no extra prep involved.
From my experience with the groups I have worked with at the community or regional level, Orchestra's are just lucky to survive and have rehearsal and performanc space cheap enough to rent. The library duties are handled by volunteers from within the orchestra as there is no money to hire outside hands. When you only perform 6-12 concerts a year, there is no economic reason to hire a librarian.
I recently played the Reed 2 book in Fiddler on the Roof with a small theatre group. The part I received had been completely erased of all previous markings...which meant there were many many wrong notes discovered in the rehearsal. To top this off, the conductor was working off a piano vocal score that was a different edition - and had no clue who to cue for solos or even that the principal clarinet part was Reed 2, not Reed 1 as he insisted at the first rehearsal! I'm sure this experience is a different reality than those group who perform Fiddler on Broadway...at least I hope.
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Author: kuteclar
Date: 2007-09-28 23:49
I have searched through many articles -
I have one simple question about the 2nd to last figure of grace notes in the cadenza. It shows (EGBb)C....on A clarinet. Previously in that measure, however, the G is flat in the lower octave. So, do I carry that Gb to the figure in question?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-09-29 00:04
kuteclar wrote:
> So, do I carry that Gb to the figure in question?
No
The last grace note figure in the 9th measure after #20 is E-G-Bb.
...GBK
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