 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: baggs
Date: 2007-08-02 23:39
Hello all. Can anyone tell me if there is a great technician for the Mazzeo clarinet living in the Central Florida area? I've found a few living in other states but would like to find one closer to home.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-03 01:48
Any good technician analyses what a mechanism is meant to do, checks that it is doing that, and if not, makes it do that, as reliably as possible.
Those are the skills I apply when faced with all manner of unusual mechanism, including the odd Mazzeo.
So you don't really need a Mazzeo specialist. You just need a good technician.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-03 02:20
I agree with Gordon. The Mazzeo mechanism is not terribly complex to figure out. A good tech should be able to work on it with no problem.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-03 07:45
But make sure whoever you get to work on them gives you enough venting and gets the spring tensions balanced well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-03 22:32
Well, I better rethink my whole career in that case.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-04 09:01
There are a lot of 'repairers' out there that I wouldn't even trust to repad a Baroque flute, let alone a clarinet (17/6) as I know they'll get the spring tension, padding and venting all wrong.
But surely an experienced tech would at least understand the workings of the extra mechanism and know how to reliably set up a Mazzeo system clarinet - be it in it's most basic form on a Bundy or on the elaborate full Mazzeo Series 10.
I can't honestly see any problem setting up a full Mazzeo system myself - I doubt it'll be as demanding as setting up a Gillet conservatoire system oboe with fully automatic 8ves.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-08-04 10:11
oh boy, there are a lot of repairers out there i wouldn't let within 100m of a Gillet conservatoire system oboe with fully automatic 8ves.... SERIOUSLY
donald
(not suggesting Gordon is one of the above btw)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-04 13:40
I'm no great shucks of a repairer, but didn't have much studying to do on my Bundy Maz, but my McIntyre is another story ! Can someone put on a pic of this Gillet oboe for all to see and ponder, please. Being a Conserv. development? with auto octave keying could get quite intricate, right? Years ago, in my "ill-wind" period, I tried to track down the attempts at Boehm keying, found a few in museums, and a series of 4-5 US patents to Dick Paladino, then in Las Vegas, talked with Jack Linton, Elkhart, our oboe-bassoon maker, little to no interest. Loree mafia at work? Thots?, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-04 14:00
Here's a couple of fully loaded German spec oboes as requested:
http://howarth.uk.com/pic.aspx?pic=./wo/HowarthXLAutoCocoGold.jpg&pid=566745
http://www.puchner.com/en/oboen/733_gross.php
I'm still thinking of building myself a set of sax-system oboes, so far they're still in the thinking stage, though I doubt it'll be impossible to do.
There was a McIntyre system clarinet on you-know-where which had me tempted (as I do ike a challenge!), though I didn't go for it. Another interesting clarinet was a Romero system that sold at Christie's around 15 years ago.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-08-04 14:32)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-04 14:49
Thanx, Chris, WOW, what a fine inst. , sure would like to try ?again?, no emb., I'm sure !! I played on a Linton ZRS, I recall, large bore, big sound, may have had a good reed or so, and played [at least passably] a couple of symps with much hard work ! If anyone is interested in Paladino's pats, a search on Google/Patents or USPTO [old file] would find them, I have a "set" somewhere ! BAck to clarinetting, am awaiting the next several ICA Journals D R's "Hist. Speakings". Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-08-04 15:49
As I mentioned Alex, I mean no disrespect, none whatsoever. My experiences playing the Mazzeo Clarinet for more than 40 years, (the complete full Boehm) has been that no technician can adjust, repair, and retune them alone, sitting in his studio working on the horn, but must always depend upon the player who I've always found, works with the technician, sometimes at his or her side. Spring tension on articulated keys that work with one another are crucial and regardless of the skill, must be done in concert with the player, the one for whom he is doing the adjusting. I was once involved in trying 17 clarinets in order to support a repairpersons business, having been requested to do this and unfortunately agreeing to the arrangment. I didn't find one instrument that had a properly adjusted bridge key or that I could play the left hand long b without some resistance in achieving the connection. The articulated G# is the same as are the other articulations or even the pad seating and the tightness of the instrument.
Do I claim some sort of exalted state? I do not. Simply, I have spent a long time playing the instrument and am quite dedicated to it. Since I cannot play with absolute perfection on every single phrase, I demand it of my technician in his preparation of my instrument.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-05 00:11
"I didn't find one instrument that had a properly adjusted bridge key or that I could play the left hand long b without some resistance in achieving the connection. The articulated G# is the same as are the other articulations or even the pad seating and the tightness of the instrument."
Quite simply, IMO, you are associating with the wrong technician(s)
BTW, many technicians are capable clarinet players.
"Spring tension on articulated keys that work with one another are crucial and regardless of the skill, must be done in concert with the player"
I disagree. The good technician makes every mechanical device, and every sealing device, operate as well as it possibly can, and reliably. Then the player loves it.
There is no mechanical TRIAL and play-test involved (unless it is for tuning or venting issues). When I , the technician, have finished the precision engineering, I play test only to make sure I did not do something silly like leave off a spring. I don't need to play test for diagnosis for springs out of balance, or any other mechanical thing is wrong.
Your technician(s) seem to have a trial and error approach. It should be a analyse-it-and-get-it-right approach. I am sorry you seem not yet to have encountered this approach. I am sure it is availably from many technicians.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-05 09:52
As well as play testing any instruments I work on, I go through them with the player when they come to collect it to see how they feel about how I've set it all up for them, and anything they aren't too happy about I can adjust (usually on oboes it's the LH top fingerplate opening, the 3rd 8ve opening and the RH mid fingerplate oening in conjunction with the C or C# key depending on how they play the lower altissimo).
For me, clarinets are easy to work on and set up (and I set them up to how I like them, but taking into account the customer's requests as well), so there's very little tweaking or nothing at all to be done after an overhaul to suit the customer. What makes it all worthwhile is getting a phone call or email from them telling me how well it's playing and 'I've never been able to do that on this clarinet before' or similar.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-05 17:04
Quote:
As well as play testing any instruments I work on, I go through them with the player when they come to collect it to see how they feel about how I've set it all up for them, and anything they aren't too happy about I can adjust
Indeed, I don't know one top tech (unless you have to mail your clarinet to them) where you don't work side by side with them at the final adjustment.
I usually work with Jimmy Yan in N.Y.C., who was a clarinetist and teacher long before he went into full-time repair. When I asked him why he gave up teaching to repair horns he said, "Much easier to fix instrument than fix people." Priceless.
I will say, that sometimes your idea of how a horn should feel and a techs are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Years ago I took my horn to this guy in Boston that a few friends raved about. The tech had bear hands and when I went to pick up my horn the action felt like lead in my hands with the rings of the lower joint set way too high for my liking. The guy was a clarinetist, but his approach to the horn was not my style.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-06 00:51
"Indeed, I don't know one top tech (unless you have to mail your clarinet to them) where you don't work side by side with them at the final adjustment. "
I ask generally ask customers when they pick up their clarinet, if they want to try it. The answer is sometimes yes. But most have come to trust that what I do will exceed their expectations, so they don't need to test the instrument.
I cannot even recall when the last time was that the customer had a different idea from me about how it should be "set up". And I usually get "very impressed" notes from the mail customers along with their cheques.
What sort of final adjustment things are you talking about? Surely not remaining leaks! If you mean venting, then I leave it much the same as I found it unless I've been asked to change it, or I know that a change will improve a note.
I could be a cultural thing... A need to alter what is, whatever it is? A customer-is-always-right reinforcement 'control' thing... I'm only guessing.
Post Edited (2007-08-06 00:52)
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-08-06 03:51
"it could be a cultural thing"
rather than cultural, i'd say that it's to do with expectation- the standard of repair is so low here in NZ (as a repairer, Gordon really has only one shop that could count as competition for pro quality repairs) that no one expects much (except for a handful of pro players- there are probably only about 12 clarinettists in the whole country who perform to what could be described as an "international standard"). If i'm ever in the situation where i get to play instruments owned/played by the "old school" players i am often shocked at what they just accept as playable- the "good" repair shops have really only been operating since the 1990s (Gordon- i'm not sure when you started up, but i'm pretty sure it was late 1980s at earliest)
Reccently i tried out two clarinets being sold 2nd hand by a "respected" teacher here in Auckland... being sold as pro instruments to an advanced student. Neither instrument was close to acceptable condition for high level performance, needing many adjustments to venting/key height and with very dodgy pad sealing... but these instruments were considered just fine by student and teacher alike.
In many ways NZ is a much more modern society than the US, but where instrument repair is concerned it is in the dark ages. Gordon is one of the reliable repairers who shows an admirable level of integrity and finess, his last paragraph is more revealing of the environment he is working in than his own (high) standards.
this will probably get me in trouble with somebody
donald
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-06 07:11
Gordon NZ
Quote:
What sort of final adjustment things are you talking about? A need to alter what is, whatever it is? A customer-is-always-right reinforcement 'control' thing.
Using my tech, Jimmy Yan as an example - the man works with hundreds of players a year, ranging from conservatory kids to top freelancers in NYC. As amazing as Jimmy's work is, each player has a preference on how they like the action on their horn and Jimmy is always open to working with you when you come to pick the horn up. Admittedly, some players are picky and some are not.
My biggest peeve is having the rings of the lower joint set too high and with too stiff an action. Jimmy always gets the tension spot on, but doesn't always set the rings low enough for me. I admit - I like them as low as possible as I have very small hands. With all the customers Jimmy works with, I cannot and do not expect him to remember my crazy quirks.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-08-06 09:06
> Jimmy always gets the tension spot on, but
> doesn't always set the rings low enough for me.
Gordon wrote:
> If you mean venting, then I leave it much the same
> as I found it unless I've been asked to change it, or
> I know that a change will improve a note.
Griffinity, you say "always" so it sounds like you had the lower rings height adjusted at least several times already by your repairer. How long do you have this clarinet that the lower rings height got out of adjustment so many times? Or is it a situation that the lower rings go to repair with correct height and come back higher? This would be a bit strange, especially if the same repairer did the adjustment last time. But it is possible that he just automatically adjust it to how he or how most players like it, in that case you can put a note in the case asking to leave the ring heights the same as they were. No problem!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-06 10:22
That is the 'double edged sword' of having a tech that plays the instrument. They have their 'philosophy' of things- in my case I have always had the rings come back much lower than they were sent in. The repair person says 'the rings were much too high!', and then the argument begins because they don't realize that there are those in the world with slimmer fingers than them. Now I do repair and take special note of the type of hands the player has and makes it best to fit those hands.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-06 10:52
(Thanks, Donald. BTW I started repairs, mainly on contract for Kirk Burnnand & Brown, about 1974)
Hmmm. On the whole, larger fingers have a larger radius of curvature over their under-surface, which means they need the ring keys LOWER to the chimneys if anything. After all, if the fingers had FLAT surfaces under them, then the ring keys would have to be FLUSH with the chimneys (especially if the finger skin is hard and inflexible.
On the other hand, if a player has very dainty fingers, with higher radius under-surfaces, and especially if they have softer fingers, then the ring keys need to be a fraction higher so that the rings are still pressed firmly when the chimneys are sealed.
Also, if the rings are of larger diameter, as they are on some models, they need to be a fraction higher. We are talking ideals here, only a few tenths of a mm.
IMO. (Geometry and mechanics and materials 101.)
I sometimes set rings up slightly differently depending on the customer's hands and the ring diameter.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-08-06 12:04
Hi,
On sax, we have a slightly different problem and that is that the amount of pressure to close the keys for a good seal is important. I had a repairman (long before they were called techs) say "I like to set the pads so it takes a little more pressure to get them closed. I did not like/want that and told him so; I prefer to use a lighter pressure. He adjusted as I asked and I was happy. The tech is not playing the gigs, it's me. Too often, having to use too much pressure on sax hides a leaky pad (same on clarinet as well for the two pad that closes in each stack).
So, from my perspective, pressure is important on both clarinet (Mazzeo or not) and on sax.
HRL
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-06 12:19
Donald, are the proportion of capable technicians, lousy technicians, international standard players, wannabe playes, good amateurs etc, THAT different in different Western countries?
You seem to paint a rather negative picture of these antipodean islands, but with only 4 million population, we could not EXPECT to have much differnt from 1/75 of everything in USA, in much the same proportions, eg:
12 'international standard' clarinetists to a couple of good technicians in NZ.
Equivalent to 900 similar clarinetists to 150 equally good techncians in USA? Is that about right?
(I do suspect that you may not know of the poor technicians as well in USA as you do those in NZ.)
Just wondering.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-06 12:33
...and "poor technicians" is one way to look at this relation.
An other perspective would say "customers who don't know what they want or are unable to make themselves unterstood". Or, most neutrally, simply "chemistry mismatch". Shrug.
(I recently brought a worthy instrument for a repad/readjustment, just to see what the "industry standard" here (Zurich, Switzerland) is. Well, it was done okay, but I was not enthusiastic about the equivalent of 400$. But what level of musical instrument workmanship do you expect from a sailing nation... ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) )
(Edited for clarity)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-08-06 12:36)
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-08-06 12:53
Of course you make a very good point Gordon- i had considered making a similar point in my post (re how small our population is- about the size of the state of Oklahoma, how many top people repair in the OK state?) but was pressed for time.
When i pay top dollar for an overhaul, and have to take an instrument back repeated times for very basic problems (eg rings catch on tone hole chimmneys), and have them look at me strangely because i am actually demanding a level of excellence they are blissfully unaware of... what do you expect me to think?
When i pick up the instrument used by one of the few pro players here who is actually an NZer, and find that his instrument is in terrible condition but he barely notices... what do you expect me to think?
When a respected NZ repairman inspects a clarinet, tests it and declares it in top condition... then i take that instrument to the US where it is tested on a vaccum thingy and it scores 70%... what do you expect me to think? (that instrument was later completely overhauled and played wonderfully)
Gordon, i was making this point in order to put your last paragraph (original post) in context. Meanwhile, i agree with you re finger/ring and your last comment (3rd post) is certainly a good one.
time for sleep
donald
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-06 12:56
"But what level of musical instrument workmanship do you expect from a sailing nation... )"
Cutting ! Cutting! LOL!
Perhaps many of your best technicans have been bought overseas! :-)
I needed that laugh. It's been a rough night for me. Thanks.
Post Edited (2007-08-06 13:02)
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-06 16:43
Quote:
Griffinity, you say "always" so it sounds like you had the lower rings height adjusted at least several times already by your repairer. How long do you have this clarinet that the lower rings height got out of adjustment so many times?
When I was in school, you would be surprised how long I had to go. No cash for repairs except maybe once a year led to creative solutions including dental floss, masking tape and wine cork
Quote:
On the other hand, if a player has very dainty fingers, with higher radius under-surfaces, and especially if they have softer fingers, then the ring keys need to be a fraction higher so that the rings are still pressed firmly when the chimneys are sealed.
I don't know about having "dainty" fingers - mine are sort of short and stubby if you ask me. I think the problem for me is that when the rings are too high, I don't completely seal the chimney as I don't have enough flesh to fill all that space between the ring and the chimney. In the left hand I am not bothered by slightly higher rings - my right hand is much more finicky. My ring finger is thinner than my index and middle fingers on the right hand, and I find I need that ring almost flush to create a seal.
Quote:
But it is possible that he just automatically adjust it to how he or how most players like it, in that case you can put a note in the case asking to leave the ring heights the same as they were.
Looking at my main set of horns, the third/ring finger "ring"is set slightly lower than the other two. It's very possible to conclude that my tech is "fixing" what appears to be an out of alignment ring. I've never gone by sight, just how the horn feels in my hand and when it plays. Next time I see Jimmy, I'll make him aware of the specifics of my request.
Post Edited (2007-08-06 16:48)
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