 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-02 15:39
Tom Ridenour, in his alternate fingerings book, advocates resting the clarinet on one's knees to make the thumb available to play trill keys under certain circumstances. And this got me thinking... why aren't clarinets manufactured such that there's a key available to be played with the right thumb when it's supporting the clarinet, i.e., a key below/left of the the thumb rest, to be played with the tip of the thumb while the upper part continues to support the instrument?
Ideas for such a key that come to mind: an alternate register key, or, a linkage to the G# key. Or perhaps a linkage to some other key or cup that could facilitate playing some otherwise awkward fingering?
I'm not an experienced clarinetist by any stretch, but it just seems like the right thumb is a bit under-utilized in terms of clarinet design.
Thoughts?
Post Edited (2007-08-02 15:43)
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-08-02 15:51
Yes, I feel that you are totally correct, as the right thumb is underutilzed.
But it is used in some clarinets and on some bass clarinets. I believe that the Clarinet Basset uses the right thumb for some of the lower notes and bass clarinets use it all the time.
In the case of bass, it is always resting on a floor peg or under a neckstrap.
I do not advocated resting any clarinet on the knee as it will definitely flatten the bell notes, even on Toms clarinets.
best wishes,
Sherman Friedland
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-08-02 16:33
Yeah I always wondered why some type of venting mechanisim couldn't be created and placed there to help with intonation on the instrument. I think it would be a great thing if someone could develop that like playing low e and f in tune as well as venting high clarion notes like a and b for example.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-02 17:00
look up german clarinets. the venting for the low notes has been around for a while.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-08-02 17:09
"look up german clarinets. the venting for the low notes has been around for a while."
Yeah I'm aware of that but I'm talking about on an R13
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Author: marshall
Date: 2007-08-02 17:16
Look at a basset clarinet or a basset extention...almost all of them use the right thumb for low C, C#, and D.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-02 17:35
I'm glad to learn about the existence of right thumb keys on various kinds of clarinets. But just to clarify, I had soprano and bass clarinets in mind when I wrote my post.
As I'm going through fingerings on both soprano and bass clarinets I could also imagine having the C# key activated by such a thumb key. There are probably a dozen or more ways such a key could be utilized on soprano and bass.
In any event, I'll be looking up German clarinets and bassets to see what they're all about.
Thanks to all who've contributed their thoughts so far.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2007-08-02 17:38
The basset clarinet is a standard, bohem-system, soprano clarinet except with an extention of a major third below the range of other soprano clarinets.
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Author: ZCClarinet
Date: 2007-08-02 17:47
We're going to end up like bassoons at this rate... I'd like to nominate a flick key for F#6 by the left hand thumb!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-02 18:10
Full Oehler systems have a right thumb operated low E and F venting mechanism to sharpen these notes, and in some cases (and on most modern full Oehlers) it has an automatic switchover that closes the low F vent when the low E is played (and is vented with the bell vent).
http://www.hueyng.de/ Click on "Werkstatt"
Some Selmer Recitals have a low F venting mechanism (without a thumb key) which stands open, but is closed with the E/B key and also when the speaker key is opened.
Some pre-Boehm clarinets from around the first half of the 1800s had thumb branches for E/B and F#/C# to avoid sliding the little fingers.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-08-02 19:25
At ClariinetFest, Peter Shackleton gave a recital on an 8-keyed clarinet. Fascinating.
AND, he reached under the instrument with his right thumb to play keys positioned for the left pinky. I've been wondering how that "trick" came to pass.
Bob Phillips
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2007-08-02 19:53
Perhaps the reasoning is partly because when standing it would most surely require the use of a neck strap. As a double lip player, I regularly use the right thumb to "push up" the instrument to battle against gravity pulling the instrument down. Kal Opperman used to say "push up" to me all the time and it's a tool that I feel helps a lot.
When playing bass standing (or sitting for that matter), I use a neckstrap and my thumb is free to do whatever it likes. (and believe me it does!)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-08-02 22:31
Try a bassoon sometime if you want to see the thumbs utilized. Low Eb requires 8 fingers and 2 thumbs.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-02 23:33
> Try a bassoon sometime if you want to see the thumbs utilized. Low Eb requires 8 fingers and 2 thumbs. <
Sounds to me like some foot pedals are in order for that instrument!
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Author: brycon
Date: 2007-08-03 00:45
Buffet has already experimented with a right-thumb "resonance" key. On their Elite model clarinet there was a key designed to raise the pitch of low e and f. I believe French clarinetists hated this model and production never really took off. However, this design concept led to the extra right-pinky resonance key on the Buffet Tosca clarinets.
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Author: marshall
Date: 2007-08-03 01:10
> However, this design concept led to the extra right-pinky
> resonance key on the Buffet Tosca clarinets.
I've played a few Tosca A clarinets...it's not really for resonance, it's for intonation. On clarinet the 12ths are out of tune...either the F is in tune and the C is sharp or the C is in tune and the F is flat. The extra right pinky key on the Tosca opens a vent slightly above the E vent so when the C with the regular fingering is in tune you can use that key for the F and since the 'F-correction vent' is slightly above the E vent it raises the pitch slightly and puts the F in tune. This way you have an in-tune C and F twelfth.
The key irritated me.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2007-08-03 02:31
I use "resonance key" as a broad term, but yes it is supposed to improve intonation. Sorry for the mix-up...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-03 07:50
When did Buffet Elites have a resonance key fitted?
I know they had several inset toneholes, but the keywork system on Elites wasn't exactly out of the ordinary and didn't have anything additional (except the LH Ab/Eb as an option) from what I remember.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-08-03 08:43
Robert Spring was here to play a concert and he played a modern piece where he used his right thumb for the trill keys. Later he showed me the fingerings and why he had to use the thumb. I tried the same with my first finger (the regular finger for trill keys) and could played it. He just didn't have big enough hands to play it with the first finger. So I think the hsape/size of someone's hands has a lot to do with rather they would use the thumb for trill keys or not.
For your question about soprano and bass clarinet - on bass there are already keys for the right thumb. Db and C and depending on model also D or Eb (at least extra keys).
On soprano I'm not sure it is so comfortable to use a right thumb key while the finger is supporting the clarinet, so I don't know how useful it would be and it is not so easy to decide what is best for this key.
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Author: brycon
Date: 2007-08-03 13:45
The Elite model I've seen was from 2001 or 2002 (I think). Maybe this key mechanism is a modification Buffet added on, but it definitely had a right-thumb key...
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-03 14:37
clarnibass wrote:
> on bass there are already keys for the right thumb.... D or Eb (at least extra keys). <
I take it that you're referring to a bass clarinet that goes down to low C, or, one with a C extension?
As far as usefulness... particularly on regular (non-C) bass clarinet I'd love to have a right thumb linkage to the register key.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-03 15:31
mnorswor wrote:
"As a double lip player...."
Do you mean that you don't rest your front teeth on the top of the mouthpiece?
Also, is what I described considered "biting the mouthpiece"?
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Author: marshall
Date: 2007-08-04 05:00
> Do you mean that you don't rest your front teeth on the top of the mouthpiece?
Yes...it means he plays like an oboe player.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-04 05:28
Thanks for your reply Marshall.
Never having thought to do this before, I tried it out, playing my bass with no teeth touching the top of the mouthpiece. Wow, what a difference in tone! The sound was dark and haunting in the chalumeau, and that characteristic bass "buzz" was gone.
I'm still just getting my feet wet on clarinet, but it's great to know about this technique as I continue to experiment.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-04 09:06
Try playing your Bb clarinet with the double-lip embouchure as well - it may feel uncomfortable and less stable than having your teeth on the mouthpiece, but the sound is certainly different.
Search the archives for double lip embouchure as there's a fair amount of info on here.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-08-04 10:07
it's quite common for Bass Clarinet specialists to utilise the technique of using the right thumb to operate the top joint trill key (intended to produce throat B flat). This key can be used instead of the register key when playing middle line B- it lowers the pitch and makes the note more stable, even on bass clarinets with a double register key mechanism. This is also useful for producing microtones and multiphonics.
At the OU symposium in 2005 i premiered a piece called "Alone now again" that utilised the right thumb operating the side trill keys on the upper joint (same as described above on Bass clarinet). This was performed on B flat clarinet, and required me to sit down and rest the clarinet on my knee.
Over the years there have been many variations on the tuning keys for low F and E- either operated by the right thumb or various automatic keys linked to the register key. Muellfeld (sp?) played a clarinet that had various thumb keys, including (if i remember correctly) a key to help going from E (top space) to F (top line) on the German system clarinet (where this F is produced either using a "bannana key" or a split fingering).
A thumb key for raising the pitch of low F, custom built and installed by a repair person in the US, was reccently described (with photograph) on this bulletin board. My old teacher had such a key installed while visiting New York in 1988 (i don't know who by though- and this clarinet was later stolen).
donald
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-08-06 20:35
"Try a bassoon sometime if you want to see the thumbs utilized. Low Eb requires 8 fingers and 2 thumbs."
Bassons have like 50 keys for their thumbs xD
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Author: William Rappaport
Date: 2023-08-25 02:05
The way I think the right thumb is often under utilized is that we soprano clarinetists, double and single lip, fail to continuously push the clarinet up against our upper teeth or into the double lip embouchure. It is difficult to do while you’re moving your fingers around, but I believe it is really important. Let it go for a moment and gravity takes advantage of the opportunity to spoil what you’re playing.
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Author: Twiss11
Date: 2023-09-01 15:20
Absolutely right, William! How can intonation be secure over the range, if the right thumb is not consistently exerting upward pressure? Personally I don't find it difficult to move the fingers in this situation, because I then have a nice firm keyboard to work with as the clarinet is anchored, more or less, between the right thumb and the embouchure. The right thumb can then be used to aid intonation and also allow the embouchure to relax for third-register notes. It makes me laugh when people use so-called support straps around the thumb-rest, and then don't tighten it enough to be of any use.
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