 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-07-18 19:08
A friend and I were having a friendly argument yesterday about "Rondo". He contends that it is *only* a form and I think it is both a form AND a tempo. I am not sure why I think that; I looked it up and it did not confirm my thoughts. What do you guys think about it?
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-07-18 19:22
I think it's only a form by definition. However, I also think it implies a _mood_ of cheerful, carefree elan.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-18 19:35
Only a form, and of course the one that springs to the clarinetists' mind is the Mozart Concerto.
It is possible to find slow and moody rondos as well, how about Beethoven Symph 3 second mvt: March funebre?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-07-18 20:46
Okay...if it's only a form, then why would composers use tempo markings such as Allegro for the first movement, Largo for the second, and then no tempo for the third and only a form? Not trying to argue, just wondering. It seems there might be more to the word "Rondo".
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-18 21:36
What tempo are you supposed to play when the composer labels a movement:
Tema con Variazione?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-07-18 22:11
good point... but even with a theme and variations there is an understood set of tempi, right? For instance, the theme is usually played not too fast and perhaps the final variation is the fastest. I know this is not always true, but seems to be the norm.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-18 23:17
Dave,
I think that the tempo is determined in these situations by understanding the performance practice of the time the pieces were composed in.
Next, the character of the piece and what you wish to express with it.
Consultation of external authorities (recordings, teachers, concert going, etc...)
Finally, the composer's tempo directions should not be taken as an absolute. Once a composer finishes a work, it is offered to the free world and interpretation.
There is the Beethoven story, (which I believe is true), that his publisher asked him to assign metronome markings for his latest symphony (the 5th??) which Beethoven did. The publisher didn't receive them, and made another request which Beethoven did again months later.
The original set came in after the second, and the metro. markings weren't even close to being the same.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-07-19 02:57
I'm all for understanding the tempo of a movement based on its compositional style/character/whatever. However, if a movement has no other marking than "Rondo" and was composed between, oh, say, 1750 and 1825, then I'm pretty much gonna play it like I mentioned above.
I'm not saying the FORM precludes other tempi, just that the LABEL on certain types of pieces just implies more of a mood.
FYI, my score of the Beethoven does not mention the Rondo form. In other words, it's not LABELLED as one...
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-19 04:24
Hello Katrina,
Composers hope that the musicians who are going to perform their works have the musical training to make explicit the implicit in their music.
Are you implying that if the form isn't in the title that it doesn't have form? A movement labelled ALLEGRO could be in binary, tertiary, sonata, rondo, sonata rondo, or several other forms. Just because the composer didn't label something doesn't mean that one doesn't need to know what it is...and it almost certainly has form.
In the period in which Beethoven was writing the fact that the movement is a rondo would have been apparent (even to amateur musicians and members of the audience!)
How it is labelled makes little difference. In an analogous situation, if the composer doesn't ever give the performers a double bar line with a clearly marked key change...does that mean the piece never modulates?
"I'm all for understanding the tempo of a movement based on its compositional style/character/whatever."
The "compositional style" starts first with form, and then with the composer's use of it! (excluding, please, the FEW composers who don't use form)
No form precludes any tempo. You could have a Vif! rondo as easily as you could have a Grave rondo.
You are right that the label of certain pieces implies moods...but the word rondo has no such implication. Nocturne, Pathetique, and Capriccio all communicate character...but don't specifically communicate tempo!
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-07-19 04:25)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-07-19 04:54
My dictionary say that rondo is a circledance and in classical sonata it's in A B A C A etc.... form.
But when I look into my other musical dictionary that is Oxford dictionary of musical terms publised 2004 then I get the word Rondo form not just rondo.
They talk about classical period Rondo and then rondeau both in 12th century among missionary singers and then as movements in late baroque suites.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-19 11:39
Iceland clarinet,
I agree completely. The rondeau's form is: A-B-a-A-a-b-A-B
"A"s and "a"s having different text. Again we have an alternation of refrains or repeated music. But no designation of tempo!
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-07-19 11:41)
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2007-07-19 13:10
Mozart (and probably other less well-known contemporaries) frequently used Rondo form (ABACA) as last movements on concertos. The traditional use of fast - slow- fast for the tempos of concerto movements mean that most rondos are intended to be played at a quick tempo, but 'Rondo' describes the structure not the tempo. Looking at my Boosey & Hawkes edition of K622, the last movement is titled 'Rondo'. The first movement is not titled 'Sonata' but it is one. In the Classical era, Symphonic movements, concerto movements, string quartet movements and piano sonatas all used Sonata form very extensively for any movement, regardless of its position in a larger multi-movement work, and so would be at a tempo to respect the music. It is interesting that many last movements that are distinctly known as 'Rondo', seem to be particularly associated with Mozart. We all know K622, but probably better known to the world at large is the 'Rondo alla Turka' (from Piano sonata no. 11 K331) and the last movement of the 4th french horn concerto K495.
The link between Classical Rondo form and Baroque rondo/rondeau movements, I surmise (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong) comes from the use of courtly dance structures in baroque suites such as Bach's orchestral suites and Handel's Water Music or Music for the Royal Fireworks. The other more blatant hangover is the Minuet & Trio movements that Mozart and Haydn use as the 3rd movement of symphonies and appear in a lot of Mozart's Divertimenti. I believe that Beethoven's first 2 symphonies have 3rd movements titled Minuet & trio , even if in reality they are Scherzos (3/8, not 3/4 time signatures).
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-19 14:46
Thanks Mike!
I too have been searching for the rondeau to rondo connection, and what you're saying makes a lot of sense.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-07-19 14:50
actually - its a car. saw it on a commercial last night
(and thought of your post)
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2007-07-19 16:47
HA!
Well, the Rondo was originally a dance as well as a structure, and the tempo -- the spirit of it, really -- was no doubt understood more or less implicitly by musicians of the day.
I suspect that composers used the rondo form for a number of reasons, one being that a piece of music that was also a dance stood a good chance of being heard and talked about at those courtly dances, thereby enhancing a composer's reputation (and that of his patron).
Keeping that in mind, I also suspect that the rondo in Mozart's Clarinet Concerto is probably played somewhat faster now than it would have been played when it was composed. I've never seen a rondo danced, but I can't imagine it was quite as quick as the Mozart rondo is usually played.
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
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