 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinet lover
Date: 2007-07-17 11:07
Supposing 2 clarinets, one with a big tip opening and a soft reed, and another one with a small tip opening but a hard reed. If both are adjusted so that the resistance are equal and blown identically, what would be the difference in sound quality? Would one be louder, thicker??
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-07-17 11:29
The narrow tip opening and longer lay with the harder reed combination will be much easier to play up in the altissimo in terms of tuning, attack and response at all volume levels.
But it depends on the player - there are many fine clarinettists who play on wide mouthpieces (1.25mm minimum) and have the tone to die for.
The only way is to try out both combinations if you can.
Although I play a 7* on saxes with a Vandoren 2.5, I prefer a close clarinet mouthpiece (Vandoren M15) with a harder reed (3.5+).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2007-07-17 15:29
This is one of those cases that I say "try it" and see. Anyone telling you what they think the differances are, will be giving you opinions, and that's what you will have opinions. You want knowledge! get 2 different facing vandorens. With the same lenth facing. Maybe a M13 and and M30. I believe those are both long facings or B45 and 5rv medium facings and try some different reeds on them and hear what that do. Make sure you employ some scientific method. compare tip openings with similar facing lenths. Personally I have found that the lenth of facing to be more important than tip opening. But that's my OPINION! I'm sure people on this list will disagree with me. If you buy them I think it will be a less than a$200 experiment and you have gained actual hands on, hard won knowledge!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with The Atonement, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-07-17 17:50
I don't find too much difference in using 1.10mm or 1.00mm openings and I just use #3.5 GlotinIII on both ones. I've both used Gennussa and Grabner mouthpieces and I find that I need to use a tiny bit softer reeds on the Gennussa and they sound very well with free blowing reeds like Xilema classic,Gonzalez FOF or Vandoren Rue Lepic but not as well with Xilema professional,Vandoren V-12,Vandoren classical and GlotinIII. This is just based on how much resistance I want in my setup. V-12(most resistance) and Rue Lepic(least resistance).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-07-17 18:04
Actually a good question. I used to think that the open/soft combination was more for jazzers than legit players. After years of exposure to many different sounding legit players......I still think that is the case. It makes sense what Chris P. says because it is only the very tip of the reed that vibrates at the highest register notes. So if you strive for the most consistant timbre from the bottom to the top of your range you want the least variables for your reed.
Now if you want to sound like Pete Fountain or Sidney Bechet, the wide open mouthpiece is the only way to go.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-07-17 19:47
.........to add on to Paul's comment, if I may, if you want to (try to) sound like Artie Shaw use the closed tip and stiff reed combination.
Hans
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-07-17 20:22
There are open mouthpieces and then there are OPEN mouthpieces. As tip openings go, 1.10 is still pretty close -- maybe "medium," at best and, allowing for differences in facing length, baffle, chamber and bore might not play much differently from a 1.00. On the other hand, 1.27 is OPEN!
As far as the low resistance mouthpiece/hard reed combination being easier to play in altissimo, all I can say is try a Lomax Andy Firth model mouthpiece with a standard 2.5 Vandoren. I think there are few clarinetists around who inhabit the stratosphere like he does.
The "conventional wisdom" I think you will find if you search previous threads on this topic is that low resistance mouthpiece/hard reed is easier to play on pitch because it allows less variation. That makes it the choice for classical playing. High resistance mouthpiece/soft reed takes more work to stay on pitch (requires greater control) because it allows greater variation (wider range of control). The reason this combination is considered a "jazz" combination is that it is easier to bend pitches and do slides, lip slurs, krechts, etc.
That's the "conventional" wisdom and I find that it holds for me. But there are many clarinetists out there (I think Eddie Daniels for one and, perhaps Tom Puwalski?) who play medium (or even relatively close) mouthpieces with medium to hard reeds and who can slide around with the best of them.
In a message to the Klarinet list some years ago, Jonathan Cohler maintained that, at a given level of combined resistance, a resistant mouthpiece with a softer reed was less prone to an "airy" sound at soft dynamics than a low resistance mouthpiece with a harder reed. Based on mouthpieces I've owned, I think there's something to that statement. However, I also think that modern mouthpiece makers must have found a way to solve this problem. The Greg Smith Chedeville model I'm playing these days has a tip opening around 1.00 and takes a standard Vandoren 3.5. Yet it is not at all airy for me at soft dynamics. But part of it may also be that I am better at balancing reeds these days.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2007-07-17 21:59
Actually I use a really close 1.03 opening and a very long facing 36 or 38. Actually I just switched to the 38. I'll be facing one up to a 40 and 42. I'm trying to find out if there is a "too long" for me. But here's the thing, everytime I go longer I put more mouthpiece in my mouth and tweek the reed. I'm using 3.5 Rico reserve reeds and I adjust them so they are quite softer than out of the humidity controled pack. But then again I play double lip, and everything works when you play double lip!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with The Atonement, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance. And now performing exclusively on Leblanc symphony clarinets
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-07-17 22:22
Tom Ridenour says (and I agree) that a close tip with hard reeds produces a more even scale than an open/soft setup. He prefers the sound he gets with a close/hard setup, and he's certainly a fine player.
Tom also says (and I agree) that a close/hard setup is much fussier about reeds than an open/soft one. They have to be balanced precisely. He says the extra trouble with reeds is worth it, since with an excellent reed, for him, the close setup sounds better than the open one.
However, his preference in tone and response is different from mine, and I prefer a slightly open tip with fairly soft reeds.
It's very much a matter of anatomy and personal preference. There are wonderful players using each style.
Tom's preference for an even scale shows up in the instruments he has designed. The Leblanc Opus and Selmer Signature are both very even. However, I have stuck with my R13, despite some unevenness and tuning problems, because I prefer its sound, and, for me, it's easier to make many sounds on the R13 than it is on Ridenour designs.
Ken Shaw
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Author: andyrox
Date: 2007-07-18 00:32
I have experienced both of this.
I played on a m15 with size 4-5 vandoren 56 rue lepic reeds. The sound was amazing! It was very dark and smooth, however i got really sick of using hard reeds because it was rare to get a good performance reed.
Now i play on a b40 lyre with 3.5 v12 reeds. It was a substantial change from the m15 setup. the sound is slightly brighter, but i feel more confortable with dynamic contrast and tounging. its up to you.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2007-07-18 01:03
Paul Aviles says that "the open/soft combo was more for jazzers than legit players" and I say you have to be on some other planet if you think "jazzers" are not legit players. You must be trying to be funny or something. If you are, speak up because anything else you have to say about clarinet playing will be taken with a grain of salt. Are there really any clarinetists left out there that think playing jazz is not "legit"? Did I misunderstand this?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-07-18 01:07
The terminology for these opposites, "jazzer" vs "legit", was developed by the jazz world and its artists, not Paul Aviles.
Although I only know Paul from reading his posts, I would venture that he does not think of Jazz as an illegitimate art form.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-07-18 01:09)
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-07-18 01:57
Dano,
You misunderstood it and need clarification. Paul was not denigrating "jazzers". The "legit" terminology has been used for a long time in this way; e.g., Artie Shaw used it to differentiate classical music from swing.
Hans
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Author: Dano
Date: 2007-07-18 02:16
I apologize to Paul and to all for not knowing the terminology. I don't recall ever hearing that terminology or ever paying attention to it if I did hear it but then again, I don't recall a lot. I did not mean to throw the topic off. I am humbled by my naivety. I suppose a "jazzer", in a way, should be proud to be compared to "legit". Thanks for clearing it up.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-07-18 09:27
Over the pond, us folks in the Olde Worlde are accustomed to the terms 'jazzer' and 'legit' to describe these playing styles - though the term 'legit' is used mostly by jazzers to describe classical (or 'legit') players.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-07-18 10:39
Now I wonder where us occasional Oompah players fit in...
--
Ben
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Author: graham
Date: 2007-07-18 11:18
given the range of variables in all aspects of a mouthpiece's design, the one thing that would be a consistent feature of open tipped mouthpieces v. closed ones, is that the open ones go louder than the closed ones. That is not to say they always project as well.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-07-19 11:21
Hey thanks for clarifying my position while I was tied up!
I was just refering to style. But just the other day I had access to YouTube (the Government won't let us watch YouTube) and found myself nearly in tears over the absolutely fun, wonderful, never to be equalled stylings of Benny Goodman on "Green Apples." Legit or otherwise, I doubt there ever will be another clarinet player as good as Benny.
But to further clarify open, I refer to mouthpiecse like the the Brillhardt. I never knew the numerical tip openning but boy that sucker is WAY different than a B45!!!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-07-19 13:07
Hello,
Let me preface my comments by saying that there are many great mouthpiece makers that have different opinions, and the clarinetists that play their mouthpieces sound great. One size does not fit all in mouthpieces, which is why there are so many available for you to choose from.
There are many different elements that influence resistance and "feel" of a mouthpiece: facing curve shape, facing length, thickness of rails (tip and side), baffle shape, bore size, and many more that don't readily come to the front of my mind.
To simply say that an "open tip" requires a softer reed, does not take into account the length of curve, or any of the other factors, however, I do generally agree with this statement. So, all else being equal, an open tip will require a softer reed than a closed one.
After much experimentation, let me tell you what works for me. You'll have to come to your own conclusion.
After rereading Ben Armato's book on reeds, it dawned on me several years ago that I wanted as much of my reed to vibrate as possible. At the time, my mouthpiece tip opening was 1.02mm, which I played with a 4 or 4.5 VanDoren traditional reed. Because I wanted more of my reed to vibrate, I dropped to a 3.5 strength and started opening my mouthpiece. I took several swipes on the sandpaper and tested the reed, then repeated until everything felt good. I did not measure along the way, except to make sure that my facing curve was staying symmetrical. When evertyhing felt good, I then measured and my tip opening went from the 1.02 to 1.17--from moderately close to rather open. Since then, I have actually moved up to what would be equivalent to a 3.75 strength and am very happy with my resistance, sound, etc. The new set-up is a bit harder to control, but if one practices enough, that will be easily managed. I find that I have less resistance than with the stronger reed/ closer facing, and can manipulate my sound better. I have more "power" in my sound, but also can play softer. I also detect more high partials in my sound, which I think give my sound more depth. When listening to recordings of the old me, my sound seems deader, and the old me sound more alive. I attribute all of this to my allowing more of the reed to vibrate.
By the way, I use the exact same set-up for both classical and jazz playing.
I would suggest having the maker of your mouthpiece send you several to test, in both close and open facings for you to check out yourself. The assumption would be that all of the variables will be the same except for the tip opening. Don't go to the expense of buying them, when you could easily test them out for no or little cost. Good luck!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Bill
Date: 2007-07-20 22:24
Paul,
Looked for "Green Apples" on YouTube and couldn't find it. Could you do a link?
Bill.
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