 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-07-07 05:59
So at the ClarinetFest during Jonathan Cohler's master class, he said the Vibrato is a must for musical expression. (well, not exact words anything) One of his evidence backing up this claim is that, he says, all kinds of music, whether be it Indian, Chinese, Jazz, etc, will have some kind of Vibrato of some sort.
ANYWAY, what do you think?
Did I also mention that he automatically assumes everyone can learn to circular breathe instantly? (Atleast that's the impression he gave me, haha)
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-07-07 07:20
If he never made it as a clarinetist, i think he sure would have made a Great Scientist (his way of thinking that is)
Post Edited (2007-07-07 07:25)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-07-07 13:49
I think it's a valuable tool. Even if you choose not to use it. to paraphrase, 'It's better to have it and not have to use it than to need to use it and not have it.'
Alexi
(who doesn't have it yet, but is working on it.)
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-07-07 14:42
"If he never made it as a clarinetist, i think he sure would have made a Great Scientist"
From his biography at Ongaku Records:
"Mr. Cohler graduated with high honors in physics from Harvard University."
And BTW, from his biography at Goldbergweb, Tony Pay, "read Mathematics at Cambridge University, graduating in 1966."
jnk
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-07-07 15:58
Circular breathing and triple tongueing are things that should be studied carefully, practiced assidulously, and once mastered discarded as idle abberations!
Vibrato is good though!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-07-07 17:24
I agree with Tony Pay's classification of vibrato as an "expressive tool" which can be used in a purposeful or ineffective way.
I also agree with Jonathan Cohler as I too have been in the "Vibrato is BAD" camp, simply because...with no real justification. In my experience, no other students played with vibrato and none of my teachers (until Julie Vaverka) taught vibrato in the classical genre.
The more I study music history and the specific history of composers, I've come to several conclusions similar to Cohler's, although I don't agree that vibrato must ALWAYS be used. For example, I saw Cohler perform Quartet for the End of Time in Boston about 5 years ago and he used a wide, on the edge vibrato in the Abyss of the Birds. I believe this is one solo where vibrato ruins the total effect of the music - but this is just my personal taste.
I do believe that vibrato can be used to great effect in classical, especially if the composer is known for composing for voice. Weber and Mozart come to mind for opera and Brahms, Schumann and Schubert for vocal chamber music. In Cohler's article, it appears his conclusion is based upon the clarinetists who inspired certain composers rather than the total works of the composers in question. I don't neccessaryly disagree with Cohler - specifically in reference to Muhlfeld's training as a violinist possibly influencing his approach to the clarinet. Years ago, I drew a similar conclusion after extensive study of Brahms history. I do recall reading a description of Muhlfeld's playing as sounding like the human voice, and I haven't come across too many vocalists who don't use vibrato.
This being said, I feel there are too many string players, non-clarinet wind players and vocalists who don't know how to use vibrato correctly, or they use it as a crutch. I have a dear cellist friend who often refers to other string players as having a "Nanny goat" vibrato. There are also players who don't know when to stop using vibrato - all they do is vibrato.
For me, vibrato is used best when it is used for shading a phrase. I would classify vibrato as a shading tool - which can create a bright intestity at the top of a crescendo or create a shimmering effect (I think of Harold Wright) and any number of other possibilities as seen in Jazz/Klezmer, etc.
Post Edited (2007-07-07 17:33)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-07-07 17:35
Tell me one thing why when you play in marching/concert wind band most conductors ask for more vibrato from the flutes and less to no at all from the clarinets. They even ask for vibrato from saxaphone players but not from clarinet. Why should all orchestral instrument use vibrato and not the clarinet ?????? I have even got the comment that vibrato in clarinet section make it play out of tune. This comment I think is very silly.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-07-07 17:50
Since the links to Tony Pay's messages don't have the whole context, I'd just like to clarify that when I first read Cohler's article here on the woodwind.org site (I've never heard him lecture), I didn't understand him to mean that he thought clarinet players should use vibrato all the time. I thought he meant to say something more moderate: That the blanket prohibition against vibrato is wrong. I agree with what Tony wrote about vibrato. I think it's a useful color tool; I don't think vibrato should be used *all* the time; and I usually dislike a broad, nanny-goat vibrato--although I do enjoy even the broadest vibrato when P. D. Q. Bach uses it for humor!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2007-07-08 00:09
Reading,(again) Tony's and Cohler's links on vibrato I feel I now know more about vibrato than I want to know!
I believe this is a common affliction of inquiring minds.
I think one of the best vibratos around is Emma Johnson's. I was listening to one of her CDs and was suddenly aware she was using some vibrato now and then. Her use of vibrato is really elegant and musical, to say nothing of subtle.
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2007-07-08 12:10
Should vibrato be used?
It very much depends on the musical context, historical perspective and your own subjective ideals.
When playing Mozart even string players are starting to have less "throbbing" in the sound when they are aware of previous performance practice.
In some pieces vibrato is a must. "Stranger on the Shore" with the obligatory lip slurs and "Yakety-Sax" with a loose embouchure and wild double-tonguing come to mind.
Maybe the Copeland Concerto can survive it.
Chris.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-07-08 14:44
I like Griffin's attitude. There are those who didn't (don't) like Callas' voice and others who say that Neil Young can't sing. Music is about expression and we are not all identical.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2007-07-09 14:27
BobD said:
"Music is about expression and we are not all identical."
Personal expression is a very important aspect of performance it is however not the only one.
The musical context of the piece is another important aspect. For example, If you visualize the start of the Debussy rhapsody as an incandescent light shining through the mist, a full bloodied throbbing vibrato may not best suit the aesthetics of the piece.
The historical context is another aspect. Baroque music performed with Romantic period affectations sounds out of kilter too.
Chris O.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2007-07-09 18:19
This is an interesting discussion. As many have said here, one should probably not ask if one can use vibrato, but *when* and *how* to best use it.
As a side note, I wonder if composers of the more recent past (in the prime days and locations of the vibrato no/no) envisioned their music without the use of vibrato. Some of the composers who wrote specifically for clarinet (e.g. Debussy rapsodie, Lutowslavski dance/preludes, Poulenc sonata) at a time and place where vibrato was considered inappropriate may not be impressed with the tone colors of today's vibrating clarinetists. I am not sure this documented anywhere. For example, Guy Deplus (whom I have not heard play vibrato) had a lot of pieces written for him and premiered many compositions. I wonder if the composers of these pieces would tolerate vibrato. I feel that such composers are looking for a certain tonal quality that only a vibrato-less clarinet can offer and that if they wanted vibrato they would have explicitely put it in the music knowing the contemporary practice of clarinet tone production. On the other hand someone writing for Stoltzman or Cohler may have different expectations.
As for Mozart or Brahms, it is difficult to judge what these composers heard coming out of a clarinet during these times. The argument that they thought of the clarinet as a singing instrument and therefore expected vibrato does not hold for me. I have been told there is a strong singing quality to my tone, yet I very seldom use vibrato. One can achieve much with phrasing.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2007-07-09 18:20)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-07-09 20:46
I wonder if it is possible to sing with absolutely no vibrato. I think not. And if that is true then I suspect that it is not possible to play clarinet with absolutely no vibrato. The type of vibrato that many object to is the obvious overdone variety and I maintain that there is a wide variation possible. Perhaps, Sylvain, yours is so "mild" that you do not recognize it. ??
Bob Draznik
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2007-07-09 21:07
Bob,
Ok, sorry I wasn't clear. Here is a more accurate statement:
I rarely try to intentionally put vibrato in my playing.
Whether the audience perceives a vibrato, I don't know. When I record myself, I do not hear one. But what I personaly do, is not so relevant to the discussion. I am certainly no authority in the clarinet world.
What I object to, and what is in my opinion not simply a matter of taste, is the use of vibrato in pieces that have been written with a certain type of clarinet sound in mind (in this case, one that does not use vibrato).
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2007-07-09 21:33
Quote:
I wonder if it is possible to sing with absolutely no vibrato.
Bill Monroe, Del McCoury, Alison Krauss to name a few- bluegrass singing is as straight as a laser beam.
www.johnmcgann.com
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-07-09 22:00
"What I object to, and what is in my opinion not simply a matter of taste, is the use of vibrato in pieces that have been written with a certain type of clarinet sound in mind (in this case, one that does not use vibrato)."
So, if a piece is written for a certain individual, it is not appropriate for others to play the piece as well, because they might have a vastly different tonal concept than the original artist? Surely you don't really mean that. IMHO, different versions of the same piece are what music is all about. I never aspire to play anything "just like" my favorite version of it. Do I learn from it? yes. Do I envy the performance? often, yes. Do I want to sound exactly like it? No.
To me, the issue is not vibrato itself, but how and when it is used. Many players use a shimmering "vibrato-like" effect in their playing which is quite lovely. Over used, over-wide vibrato is almost always innapropriate, just as over-doing dynamics is. The culprit may not be the vibrato itself (or the dynamics, or whatever), but rather in the unsubtle and unmusical ways some people choose to use it.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2007-07-09 23:04
Ok, so since we are splitting hairs, here is what I wrote:
"As many have said here, one should probably not ask if one can use vibrato, but *when* and *how* to best use it."
That does not sound that different from Mags1957's statement:
"To me, the issue is not vibrato itself, but how and when it is used."
For now we agree.
Mags1957:
"So, if a piece is written for a certain individual, it is not appropriate for others to play the piece as well, because they might have a vastly different tonal concept than the original artist? Surely you don't really mean that."
Actually, in some instances I *exactly* mean that. I certainly don't agree that "different versions of the same piece are what music is all about". My job (and yours) as an *interpreter* of the composer, is to convey, to the best of my knowledge and ability, what the composer wrote. If the piece says "sound like a duck, overdo vibrato". then I'll try my best to do just that. On the other hand, if it's a Paris conservatory contest piece written in 1910 by Debussy who was enamoured with the idea of a "French" sound and musical identity, then I will likely interpret the "reveusement lent" as soft, light, airy, and without vibrato. In this instance, even though it says "doux et expressif" playing it with vibrato is to me just as wrong as playing it loud.
It would *very* unwise of me to try to do anything different than what Debussy and Stravinsky intended. They were/are light years ahead of me in their understanding of music. In fact, they created music, I haven't, and it would be foolish of me to think that I am anything more than their loudspeaker.
So to come back to your comment: if a piece was written by composer X for player Y with Y's sound specifically in mind and my sound widely differs, then yes my interpretation will likely be inappropriate, at it requires something I may not be able to offer. After all, even such skilled players as the Chicago Symphony Orchestra have been asked to change instruments for some german pieces to achieve the proper tonal color...
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
Post Edited (2007-07-09 23:19)
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Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-07-09 23:32
I guess we're not going to agree on this one. Which is fine with me, just like it's fine with me if we don't agree on the same interpretation of a piece.
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Author: srattle
Date: 2007-07-09 23:41
I just bought a CD with Richard Hosford playing the Brahms Quintet in the nash ensemble (GREAT cd, and I would recommend it to anyone)
He uses vibrato a lot, but is one of the first vibratos on clarinet that I really like . .in fact, love.
This CD has moved me over from being a person who says that clarinet should never have vibrato, to be saying that I really should learn how to create this kind of vibrato.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-07-10 08:09
Sylvain-
You mentioned the Debussy- I have heard of an old recording of the Debussy by one of the 'original' students that played it in 1910. The player was an adult at the time of the recording, BUT he was using a very fast vibrato.
Has anyone else heard this? Is there a clip floating around somewhere?
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