 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-07-03 06:41
> thoughts?
Expensive.
I could buy over 1000 reeds (that'd be two each month for forty years) instead...and opening my own reed business is not quite what I'm after.
--
Ben
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-07-03 07:22
It's not that expensive when you consider that double reed players (serious ones) spend just as much to aquire the tools they need.
Also, you might be able to buy 1,000 reeds, but most people who make their own would agree that the reeds they make would not only be better in sound quality and flexibility, but also in longevity. Exponentially increased reed life means being able to practice routinely on reed that you will perform on without fear that they will change.
So, the cost is not that prohibitive when you consider the benefits.
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-07-03 13:43
Ben I can see your point, but here's where I'm coming from.
some players do not hesitate to drop 11k on a set of Toscas(great horns in my opinion but I can't afford em). The difference in sound from a Tosca to a good R13 is much less then the difference in sound from a good reed to a bad reed, so for me the price can be easily justified.
you may be able to buy 1000 reeds with that money but I've been able to repeatedly make better reeds than any V12 on my reedual despite it's inherent flaws. So I'm looking for something more consistent.
My other thought is this, the reedual is marketed towards bassoonists as well, yet they never use it. All oboe players and bassoon players use profilers that look similar to this...so I'm just thinking there may be something to this type of design.
Thoughts?
-Chris
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2007-07-03 21:37
I wonder what that thing will do that a CNC vertical mill will not do. There are some small ones that might fit the bill for making reeds. All you need is to get cutter paths for every strength reed you produce.
This is exactly what Legere does, except that they change the resin formula to vary the reed strength.
|-(8^)
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-07-04 00:32
Ralph,
Interesting info about the Legere method of varying strength. You may be interested to find that cane reed strength is not varied by thickness, or at the very least can not be predicted by thickness. For example all Vandoren reeds are cut to the same specs. and are amazingly accurate when measured. They are measured after the fact on a strength gauge and then sorted.
Where could I get one of these CNC machines and how much do they cost?
I'm looking for info on this type of profiler because it looks like what bassoon and oboe players use. Also there are some design problems inherent in the reedual that I believe make it impossible to get consistent and accurate results.
-Chris
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2007-07-04 00:33
I'd be curious to see this machine and have a hands on session with it. It looks very similar to the DeLutis, which I use, but is twice the price, at least.
I too would like to hear from anyone who has used it.
David
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-07-04 03:26
David,
Seeing this machine has made me rethink trying the Dilutis again. This kind of design is clearly where he got his inspiration from(not this exact model I'm sure, but the basic concept of blade planing machines that almost all dbl reed players use.)
With your reed machine, do you use the metal model? I've seen it and tried it in action with a cane model, and the results are terrible. Tips always chipped off, vamp is filled with bumps...basically an accurate smooth result is not possible. I think a metal model(like the ones dbl reed machines have) is a must to get better results.
My question for you is do you get consistent results, in terms of measurements especially at the tip? I realize measurements are not everything but nothing is more frustrating than botching a tip of a blank that took 20 minutes to make. The variation I get with the dual is usually within 5 hundreths of a millimeter but that is enough to ruin a reed, esp if it's on the too thin side.
Thanks,
Chris
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Author: Hermann
Date: 2007-07-05 08:28
(Disclaimer - I am maker of reed machines and tools)
I have developed a CNC milling machine for making single reeds:
http://www.uhl-technik.de/en/download/rfm82s_dat.pdf
But it is designed for semi-professional reed maker and to expensive for private use.
Hermann
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-07-06 16:40
Hermann,
I have actually been to your site. Your CNC design looks very nice. Along with the reed design software it looks like an amazing tool to have. I doubt anything would be easier or more accurate than your machine.
What do you recommend as the best non-CNC machine(affordable for a professional clarinetist) on the market?
Keep up the good work, I hope to see one of your machines in action some day!
-Chris
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Author: Hermann
Date: 2007-07-06 18:01
Chris,
I don't know a lot about the non-CNC reed machines, but I know the Reeds 'n Stuff machine. I saw it two years ago at the music fair in Frankfurt and I have to say it doesn't work very well. A few months ago I heard they have now a new design and you should contact them to get more information about it.
Hermann
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-07-06 19:01
Getting the 1000+ reeds and having your horn in your mouth more vs. Getting the reed stuff and using a lot of time cutting cane instead of playing.
Just depends on what you enjoy - if I truly loved working on reeds like some people do, of course I'd get it.
Expensive is right.
CA
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-07-07 00:19
Chris A., I completely sympathize with the basic emphasis you're presenting. Maybe I can offer a counter-point, of sorts.
I absolutely believe that while making reeds might consume a bit more time up front, the benefits and time saved obsessing over reeds is one reason that people DO make their reeds.
Making the reeds doesn't take as much time as you might think in relation to sorting through commercial reeds and constantly testing them. When I used commercial reeds exclusively, I was constantly worried about the reeds changing quickly and dying quickly. Both of these things are total realities of commercial reeds, no matter how much people might like their particular adjustment system. For whatever reason, commercial reeds die fast, wheras handmade can last months while retaining the same playing characteristics. Once I have a small group of good reeds, I just stick with them and play them for hours on end, day after day. I actually spend less time with reeds now than when I wasn't making them.
It's definitely not for everyone, as it can be a frustrating process. I do think, however, that by framing it as time making reeds vs. time playing, you are creating an inacurate dichotomy for what people enjoy.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2007-07-07 11:21
CNC == "computer numerically controlled"
I am not a machinist, and don't have direct experience with them, but there are any number of PC-controlled desktop mills available. These are the just the first ones returned by a Google search of "small cnc mill":
http://www.cncmasters.com/CNC%20Jr%20Mill.htm
http://www.5bears.com/
http://www.sherline.com/8540pg.htm
http://www.minitech.com/hardware/mills/cnc_mills_index.htm
http://www.techno-isel.com/Education1/Ed_Machines.htm
http://www.sherline.com/CNCmenu.htm
Regards
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-07-07 20:22
Hermann,
Thanks for the info, I think you may be the only person on the bboard who has actually seen the reeds n stuff profiler.
What about it was bad? Was it not accurate? The Dilutis reed machine which is the closest American product to the reeds n stuff machine leaves reeds with a very ragged finish even when using a metal blank...is it the same case with the German profiler?
I've been in contact with a German music store who carries that machine and says it is currently the best thing out for clarinet players who make their own reeds, but I'd like to try one out before I buy it.
Thanks for the help!
-Chris
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-07-10 15:41
Wow, Hermann, that machine looks incredible. It's probably the best thought-out personal reed making device I've seen. Of all the machines I've seen that use a knife like this one, this machine has more stability and looks like better materials were used. Not to mention what looks like a more reliable guiding system.
If this was still available (I see it's not listed on your site), I'd be very interested in it.
-Jim
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Author: Hermann
Date: 2007-07-10 17:30
I'm sorry, Jim. It was produced only in a limited edition of 20 pieces.
Hermann
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2007-07-12 19:30
Chris wrote:
>Seeing this machine has made me rethink trying the Dilutis again. This kind >of design is clearly where he got his inspiration from(not this exact model I'm >sure, but the basic concept of blade planing machines that almost all dbl reed >players use.)
>With your reed machine, do you use the metal model?
No, I've always used either Vandoren V12 models, or a reed that I've made. I find Vandoren models to be better than my own reeds as a model, but have never figured out why.
>I've seen it and tried it in action with a cane model, and the results are >terrible. Tips always chipped off, vamp is filled with bumps...basically an >accurate smooth result is not possible. I think a metal model (like the ones >dbl reed machines have) is a must to get better results.
Probably a metal model would be more accurate, but they're expensive, at least to a guy who is retired from the weekly grind, so I've never invested in one. I find the quality of the cane (in the reeds I'm cutting, not the model) is the greatest determining factor for whether the reeds work well or not, and the quality of the cane can vary even within the same tube.
I had the gouging and bumpiness problem when I first started using he DeLutis machine, and I talked to DeLutis about it. Of course, I had used the ReeDuAl with dry cane, so I did the same with the DeLutis machine at first. DeLutis shapes his blanks and cuts his reeds with wet cane - soaked at least 20 minutes, or longer. I find soaking the blanks smooths out the surface of the reed as it is cut. For me, soaking about 30 minutes, and not more than a hour, keeps the cane from getting "bloated" and ruining the reed. Just my experience and preference - YMMV, as always.
>My question for you is do you get consistent results, in terms of >measurements especially at the tip? I realize measurements are not >everything but nothing is more frustrating than botching a tip of a blank that >took 20 minutes to make. The variation I get with the dual is usually within >5 hundreths of a millimeter but that is enough to ruin a reed, esp if it's on >the too thin side.
I don't measure. I use the machine to get close, and finish the reeds as I break them in. My current reed tool of choice while finishing is ATG, and I also own a Reed Wizard, which works well, but costs three times as much. I'm not great with machinery of any kind, and I find that I need to constantly remind myself not to press **down** on the cutting blade as I make the reed - that thins the tip too much, and also makes the area behind the tip too thin and weak. With a good model, you can let the blade do all the work.
My complaint about the ReeDuAl was that each piece of snadpaper was different, so the reeds off the ReeDuAl could vary widely, even on the same setting. You would really need to calibrate the machine for each sandpaper strip, which is a giant PITA.
So now, I try to make reeds with the tip a bit on the heavy side, and adjust them with ATG as I break them in. I shape the tips after the cut reed has dried for a couple of hours (or better, overnight). So, the tips are square (more or less) off the machine, and any tearing at the tip is usually at a place where the material is going to be sanded away anyway, so it isn't a problem. I shape the tips by hand with sandpaper (sections of old ReeDuAl strips are good for this!), so I can match the tip shape of my mouthpiuece pretty accurately. Beats any clipper I've ever used.
Sorry - I kind of dropped the ball on this thread. Any questions, post them, or email me direct (see my profile).
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: cpark
Date: 2007-07-13 12:49
David,
Interesting, I appreciate the insight on the Dilutis...I may have to give it another shot.
-Chris
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