 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: bthorpyuma
Date: 2007-06-29 07:22
Hello all,
I've been skimming through some of your conversations and come to the conclusion that most of you are conversing about concepts that I, as a drummer, just don't quite have an appreciation for. I do however have to make some decisions that will have a significant impact on many of my young students. So, I come in peace and ask for some assistance from you.
What reeds do you recommend that I stock for my young clarinet and bass clarinet players. Please keep the following in mind:
... will generally have between 2 and 8 year of playing experience.
... will be involved in performing concert literature and marching literature
... may be involved in a "big band" style ensemble
Some students will have limited finances, so is it better to have higher quality reeds and have to use longer than may be acceptable, or to have ample supply of a slightly lower quality reed?
One last question ... what's the best way for me to store the reeds, since some boxes may not be opened for as long as 24 months in a worst case scenario?
Thank you for your time, I appreciate the help.
B. Thorp
Band Director
Gila Ridge High School
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-06-29 11:21
Storage is easy, a filing cabinet is just fine.
Which reeds is a tough issue. Another way to go is the synthetic reed route. I have used the Legere (clear plastic reed) on Bb clarinet in some pretty critical situations. Their sound is quite acceptable compared to their cane brothers and they do last longer (months per reed). You only need to be sure to use a strenght 1/4 less than what you would use in cane....yes, they vary by the 1/4 strength.
For bass I like the Fibracell reeds, which act very much like cane and have a very woody sound on bass (you can use same strength reed). Just don't confuse these two brands. The Fibracell soprano reeds and the Legere bass reeds are not nearly so good.
As for "real reeds" I'll just go ahead and vote for the more expensive reed. If treated properly, cane can last a fairly long time and you might as well sound good doing it. Go for the standard Vandoren (blue box) knowing in advance that you'll get about four out of ten that you'll really be able to use.
..........good luck,
..............PS. My buzz roll sucks
..........................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-06-29 13:51
Another vote for the Legere for this reason:
Vandorens are great when you get a good one (4 out of 10 sounds about right).
Rico Grand Concert are great when you get a good one (6-7 out of ten)
Gonzales sound great when you get a good one (5-6 out of 10 - if you can even find one now)
BUT - if you are not a clarinet player, how can you tell if you're student has a good one or not? My experience (clarinet player and band director) is that most younger students will play whatever reed you give them. If you give them a terrible one, they will play it for the next 2-4 weeks. They will not break it in properly, and are ill-equiped to work on the reed. Playing on a lousy reed will make them sound lousy, and makes it impossible for them to develop proper air support/embouchre/flexibility/tone.
If you go with Legere, you never give them a bad one. You give them a reed that will play in the cold (marching band), never warp, and when it finally gives out (after lasting 5-6 times longer than a normal reed), you will hand them another reed that plays exactly the same. While I personally think that the very best cane reeds sound better than a Legere, the Legere reed will sound better than 90% of the reeds in the box, and need no work.
If you have to go with cane, I would vote for the Rico Grand Concert (I use thick blank), just because there are more playable reeds in every box, reducing the number of "clinkers" you get.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-29 14:44
For your specific situation, I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more with the recommendations for Legere. Legere reeds are $13.80 apiece (!), at Weiner Music, which is probably the lowest-cost source you will find. They may last longer than cane reeds but they do eventually wear out and they can warp over time. Even finding the right strength for each kid can be a costly proposition (yes, I know about the return policy but that would be a major nuisance in this situation). My recommendation would be that, for clarinet, you stock some relatively inexpensive but still decent "beginner" reeds, (I will follow the recommendation of one of the best teachers in St. Louis for beginners and suggest Rico Royals -- a little more than $10 for a box of 10) in strengths of 2.5, 3 and 3.5. I would also recommend that you stock traditional Vandorens (blue box) in the same strengths (just under $15 for a box of ten -- small discount for quantity purchases). If the school pays, only give the more expensive reeds to more advanced students who can handle them. If the kids (or their parents pay) give the kids the option, once they seem ready. Recommend everyone use the cheaper reeds for marching.
I suspect you will only have a few kids on bass clarinet at any one time. If that's the case, whatever reeds you've settled on for tenor sax should be just fine for bass clarinet as well.
If they are taking private lessons or have become really, really good (and economic circumstances allow), suggest they buy their reeds outside of school (if they don't come to that conclusion on their own).
BTW, they should have more than one playable reed at a time. Perhaps around 4 for the upper-level students.
Post Edited (2007-06-29 14:46)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-06-29 19:29
Vandoren 3, 3.5 blue box. Maybe 3.5 V12 for the more advanced kids. Legere's are a good option, but expensive. 3 to 3.5 would work for most kids. 3.75 for the more advanced ones. 4's are usually a little stuffy. Once they get the right strength, all the reeds will play with no work. Still, they should be rotated just like cane reeds.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2007-06-29 20:50
Not sure I understand why they don't have their own reeds. Certainly a student who has been playing for 8 years ought to be capable of walking into a music shop and recognising the bit of wood that straps to the mouthpiece. Am I missing something?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-06-29 21:42
I'd consider not opening the box 24 months to be a best case scenario. In my experience, they play somewhat better then than if I just bought them.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2007-06-29 22:52
>Vandoren 3, 3.5 blue box.
yes, but...
>Not sure I understand why they don't have their own reeds.
right. why should you take time messing around with supplies?
bands, especially high school bands, usually don't stock reeds. or blue juice, slide grease, flip folders, lyres, berp's, metronomes, tuners, drum sticks, etc.
all of that is the students' problem in every band hall i've ever been in.
if there is no local music store, then point them to musiciansfriend.com or weinermusic.com ; require them to provide their own supplies.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-06-29 23:18
In a perfect world, that might be the case. However, sometimes a student may only have one or two reeds, and the only good reed gets destroyed by an accident, or chips, or...
My daughter's HS band does keep a few boxes of reeds in stock for emergencies and sells them to the kids as needed. Obviously, they can't be adjusted or broken in properly that way, but if it's the difference between having a reed or not, there's nothing wrong with stocking a few.
As to the specific types, I have to agree that the Legere reeds would be an excellent choice. The Quebec cut are better than the Standard, and cost the same. If you go to the website http://www.legere.com there are some excellent resources there, including a small guide for instructors, as well as a reed strength comparison charrt for various brands used on clarinets and other instruments. It's all free for the downloading in Adobe Acrobat format.
As to cane reeds, I like the Gonzalez FOF or the Grand Concert Select. The Mitchell Luries are OK, but they tend to run soft, and don't last as long. Most students have to go one half strength harder than the reeds thay had been using. Some folks like them here, and others do not.That's why ice cream comes in a rainbow of flavors, too!
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: FDF
Date: 2007-06-30 00:22
What reed to use also depends on the circumstances of the students in the high school. If the money for a reed means no lunch for the day, or something akin to that, then a inexpensive, but consistent reed like Rico will do quite nicely. Furthermore, when chipped the band director can clip the reed and let the student get a little more mileage out of it. Believe me, students will learn to play these reeds with good tone and intonation.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-06-30 00:27
My experience with Gonzalez FOF reeds tells me they are very hard compared to same number as say Vandoren, by about 1/2 or more, but they appear to be longer lasting. So Vandoren 3.0, Gonzalez 2.5 or less.
richard smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-06-30 00:50
The one piece of the puzzle that some of you seem to be missing is the fact that most advanced students are buying their own reeds. In general, the kids who buy reeds from their band director are not advanced enough to be able to tell a good reed from a bad one. The truth is that they will absolutely just play whatever you give them ( I speak from many years of experience). None of them will play a reed and hand it back. 99% of them will not work on the reed. So, if you hand a kid who's struggling a horrible reed, he will play it every day for a month. And sound horrible. Who does that help?
Don't get me wrong - I sometimes play Rico Royal reeds on sax myself - they're cheap, and some play pretty darn well! If one trusted the student to judge a good reed from a bad one, orange Ricos and Rico Royals would be a good choice. But they simply don't. They just play all 10 reeds out of the box. One other thing to consider: most of these kids, they only play 45 minutes a day during band - a Legere may last them 3-4 months! And please don't give a tenor sax reed to a bass clarinet player (or vice versa)!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-30 03:03
"And please don't give a tenor sax reed to a bass clarinet player (or vice versa)!"
Why not? Considering the number of times this question has come up on the board and the number of players at all levels who have reported success with tenor reeds on bass and vice versa, I'd like to hear your reasons.
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-06-30 03:28
Jack,
We'll agree to disagree. You have all your clarinet players on Rico Royal reeds, and your bass clarinet players on Rico Royal tenor sax reeds. I'll have all my clarinet players on Legere Quebec reeds and bass clarinets on Legere (or Fibracell) bass clarinets reeds. I like my solution better - you like your solution better. We're both happy.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-30 06:13
Mags,
You've changed the discourse here (something that happens too often on this board, IMNSHO), i.e., you haven't addressed my question at all. Instead, you've set up a straw man that isn't even an accurate representation of my position, and then dismissed it with a waive of your hand. Let me see if I can do better. As I understand it, you conclude, based on your experience, that Legeres are more consistent and last longer than cane reeds. I don't disagree with either point. If those are the criteria that are most important to Brad, then perhaps he should choose Legeres.
But I think the cost of the solution may be important to Brad and I think that the cost of Legere's makes them inappropriate for his specific situation. Focusing, for the moment just on the soprano clarinets, I note that one Legere costs more than a box of 10 Ricos and almost as much as a box of traditional Vandorens. Even without the initial cost of finding the right Legere strength for each student, I think most students will need at least two a year but I doubt many students will need 20 cane reeds, particularly if there is someone at the school giving clarinet lessons who can teach the kids about and help them with reed preparation. (Actually even if there isn't, Brad could probably learn how to do it himself or possibly delegate the responsibility to an upper-level student. It isn't rocket science and it's a useful skill.)
And let's not forget the amount of money tied up in reeds sitting in the file cabinet. It seems to me that the cost of having an adequate supply of Legere's to meet student needs during the year would be greater than even a combination of Ricos and Vandorens simply because one Legere can meet only one student's emergency while a box of ten reeds can serve multiple students simultaneously.
Since Legere bass clarinet and tenor sax reeds cost the same as their soprano clarinet reeds, the cost differential between Legere reeds and Rico or Vandoren reeds for bass clarinet is smaller and, with care, some students may only need around one per year (though I think marching band would wreak havoc on them -- but maybe Brad will exercise what I would consider good judgment and not march bass clarinets). Here Legere may be a viable choice. But note that I never recommended any specific reed for bass clarinet. Rather (operating under the assumption that Brad is probably asking someone else for an opinion on sax reeds and that his band will have more tenor saxes than bass clarinets) I recommended that he let whatever tenor sax reeds he settles on do double duty. Based on my own observations and the comments of many others on previous threads, I believe these reeds should probably work as well as any arbitrary choice of bass clarinet reed and this approach would reduce the variety of reeds Brad has to stock (and, therefore, the cost of stocking them and hassle of ordering them).
You made a case for Legeres for Brad's situation and gave your reasons. I have argued for a different solution, also targeted for his specific situation, and tried to give my reasons, including the downside (cost) of Legeres. Because we view different factors as important, our solutions differ. As a result, Brad has more options and can choose based on which factors he thinks are most important.
But I still would like to know the reason for your blanket statement to the effect that tenor sax reeds are not appropriate for use on bass clarinet and vice versa." That was the specific question I asked before. Based, on comments to the contrary by numerous players at all levels (search the archives on "bass clarinet tenor reed" without the quotes), I find that statement hard to accept at face value. Your response so far, though, suggests you don't have an answer. That surprises me.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-30 10:35
Jack...as the song goes, "You can't always get what you want." But then there are times you can't even get what you need.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-06-30 11:20
There is more "wood" on a bass clarinet reed, therefore there is more to produce resonance, therefore they sound better. No one ever cared what a saxophone sounded like.
...........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seafaris
Date: 2007-06-30 14:01
My vote goes with the Legere regular reeds. They have strengths under #3's. 1st stop clarinet has them for $11.95 and they also sell student reeds for $5.95 http://1stopclarinet.stores.yahoo.net/bbclarreed.html
I think they are a sponsor and really have great service and prices. I am 60 and have been playing for 3 years and the Legere's for the last year full time. They are consistent, and are not affected by humidity. If there is a problem with my playing it usually isn't the reed and I find that I get more quality practicing in. I also record my practices and I love the tone I get. Now my wife has been playing for many years also likes my tone better with the Legere, but she prefers to play the cane reeds. It is a real personal issue and I guess it is also what one gets used to and feels comfortable with.
...Jim
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mags1957
Date: 2007-06-30 14:36
Jack,
I'm sorry if you thought I was dodging your question - I was really only trying to avoid "arguing" with you, since I agree with your basic premise that Brad is getting different advice, and it is up to him to choose which sounds like the best fit for his situation.
My answer as to the tenor sax reed on bass clarinet: I was a serious bass clarinet player in my youth, having made the finals of a few major orchestras, but never securing a position. I did try tenor sax reeds on bass clarinet a few times and I thought the result was just awful - woody, thin, bright- not even an acceptable "practice" reed. I did search the board, and was surprised at the number of people who think they they sound as good (or even better) than bass clarinet reeds. That was not my experience. I also agree with you that bass clarinets should not march. Making your bass clarinet players march with a Bb clarinet gets them back in touch with their clarinet roots, which is a good thing, I think.
As to Brad's original question: I still don't think anything can be considered cost effective if it involves some kids playing on terrible reeds much of the time. In my opinion, that's like letting a trumpet player play a plastic mouthpiece because they can get one for $5.00 - cost effective, or disaster?I don't know if you are a band director or not, but trust me on this one: the kids we are talking about (the ones who buy their reeds one at a time from their band director) are not taking lessons, and are not getting help with reed preparation. If they were at all "reed-savvy", they would be buying reeds by the box and breaking them in correctly. My best clarinet players do not play Legeres (although like me, they have a few in their case). But for the "average" kid, it's the best reed they'll ever play. Not to mention that the Legere is much more weather-friendly for marching band.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-30 19:54
Now I understand not only the basis for your position on reeds for bass clarinet but also why you feel as strongly as you do about it. Thank you for the explanation. The point I wanted to verify was that it is opinion, however expert and however strongly held, not scientific fact and note that there is opinion, equally strongly held and perhaps equally expert to the contrary.
I'm not a band director (my "day job" is teaching accounting and accounting information systems) but I have gotten to know a number of local band and orchestra directors in musical organizations that I belong to and I have a couple in my family. Some of these are in quite wealthy supportive school districts and some are in less supportive districts with a significant number of children from disadvantaged families. Perhaps my position is unduly weighted by Brad's comment that some of the kids will have limited finances and my concern for talented children from economically disadvantaged families whose parents would find an occasional dollar or two for reeds far more palatable than $12 at a (n admittedly less frequent) pop. (BTW, 1-Stop beats Weiner on Rico Royals as well as Legeres. Perhaps Weiner needs to qualify their claim of "lowest woodwind prices in the world!") Also (and here I need to heed my own advice not to generalize to the world based on my own experience - the sample size is too small) I have had better luck with the Ricos (when my daughter was taking lessons) and Vandorens than you. (As I think I have mentioned in other threads, I generally get 8 or 9 reeds in each box that playable with little or no further work and the rest almost always come around -- indeed sometimes turn out to be the best -- with a little work.) So, at least in my experience (supported by the opinion of my daughter's teacher who is the lead clarinet teacher at our local high school conservatory and has performed many times with the SLSO), I think "terrible reeds much of the time" is something of an overstatement. I certainly wouldn't have made the recommendation I did if I felt the same. Also, my experience with Legeres has not been as positive as yours. For me they play very well initially but begin to "give out" after a half-hour or so. I've only tried the original type, though, not the Quebec or the student.
I agree that kids who are buying reeds one-at-a-time from their band director generally won't be the ones taking private lessons and won't have help with proper reed preparation unless the school provides it. So Brad (if you're still here ), regardless of what you decide but particularly if you opt for cane reeds, I would recommend you take some steps to make sure that students aren't being saddled with a reed that doesn't work. At a minimum, I think that would involve watching them in rehearsal and asking them individually every now and again how their reeds feel. I also think that having one or more of your better upper-level students helping the others in this regard would benefit everyone.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2007-07-01 10:57
In my experience people in general don't fully appreciate and care for things they borrow or get "for free". I do believe that youngsters should have to purchase their own reeds. Yes, I realize some kids perhaps don't have the money but they could do some kind of chore at Band to pay for them. I wouldn't allow using lunch money.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-06 12:34
Hi Everyone,
I'd like to elevate this thread again since most of the people that originally participated are still active and may have "mellowed" during the interim. Also, as some of you may know, I have really become much more serious about playing bass clarinet (I think DS called it a man's/real clarinet or words to that affect).
My motivation to become more active with BC is the number of calls I have been getting for shows which include bass in the reed book. Also, I am bored to tears playing tenor sax in one collegiate community band that I frequent. I need a change!
Let's ignore the Legere reed in the equation and talk just about cane reeds. I have a bunch of tenor reeds of the appropriate strength laying around and have gotten several Rico Royal and LaVoz tenor reeds to really play well; most are tenor rejects but I seem to not want to pitch them (RRS = Reed Retention Syndrome). Among some of my eBay bulk reed auction wins I have acquired several boxes of #3 Ricos (wood-grain and orange box) BC reeds that play great.
Am I missing a current production cane reed that might be better? Have those that previously posted on this thread changed their opinions over time?
HRL
PS I use tenor reeds for BC and vice-versa and have no problems.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-06 13:43
FWIW in order to fill an order up to the next shipping fee bracket I ordered some Selmer Primo reeds for Soprano Clarinet, Alto and Tenor Sax and Bass Clarinet.
Primos are Gonzalez reeds in slightly limited strengths (2..3.5 IIRC). IME they last just as long as Vandoren, with a higher yield per box, and feel better in my mouth. When the time's up I'll buy them again.
(no affiliation with either company mentioned here)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-05-06 13:58
D I have to agree with you because I just don't understand why students can't have their own reeds. My experience is that Vandoren Blue box reeds which are available anywhere are the way to go rather than Mitchell Lurie or plain Rico. They last longer,better tone quality and they stay more stable over their entry live span.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-06 14:03
> My experience is that Vandoren Blue box reeds which are available
> anywhere are the way to go rather than Mitchell Lurie or plain Rico.
> They last longer, better tone quality and they stay more stable over
> their entry live span.
Not in my experience. Different players, different reeds. One size doesn't fit everyone. (Else we'd all be playing on a #4 reed, no?)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-05-06 14:44
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did.
But one brand doesn't fit everyone either. ;-)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2009-05-06 15:54
On the tenor reed subject, I've just finished a doubling gig (tenor sax, Bb clari and oboe) and found plasticover tenor reeds were excellent for that situation. Cane reed with a kind of sprayed on coating. The MD had palpitations when he realised what I was playing, but as it was already half way through the run and he hadn't noticed what I was up to it couldn't have sounded that bad! The cane reed was hopeless in the pit, couldn't keep it wet. Not too bad in the first half as I had more tenor, but by the middle of the second it was very dry and frankly hopeless. If only someone could invent the same thing for oboe! Clarinet reeds were fine with a bit of slobbering on.....thank goodness, I don't think I could have coped with three misbehaving instruments.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-05-06 18:55
D,
I played some gigs with an old-timer who used a small piece of moistened sponge inside the cap for those situations. I tried it and it works great.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-06 19:45
Lately I'm considerably happier with Gonzalez than Vandoren for bass. I keep an assortment of both in rotation, but the Gonzalez have performed quite a bit better lately.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2009-05-06 21:18
I might have to try the sponge. However the combination of very quick changes and my inexperience of doing so meant that using caps was pretty much out.
Although thinking about it, none of the reed players were using caps, so perhaps there simply wasn't time even if I were slicker at doing so. At least the brass suffered too this time, mutes flying everywhere!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
