 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2000-07-06 07:35
All clarinetist know that throat Bb is an awful note. Many devices have been developped to improve this note. Now, you can see a smart one on the Patricola models (see: www.patricola.it), based on the lh thumb ring and the vent key. Also some Rossi models have these device (a combination of the vent key and the throat G# key.
Although they improve the pitch and expression, they are not adopted universally. In fact, the most famous brands (buffet, selmer, leblanc, yamaha) haven't such models. Why?
Any experiences about these devices?
What are the trade offs?
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Author: Eoin McAuley
Date: 2000-07-06 09:13
Rosario Mazzeo invented a device which used the side vent for throat Bb instead of the register hole. The side vent was opened any time the right hand rings were down but the thumb hole was open. The main disadvantages were that the resonance fingerings for G, Ab and A, where various finger holes are covered to get a good sound, were not possible. Also the fingering shortcut where you leave all fingers of the right hand down when coming down across the break was not possible.
Rossi's mechanism seems to use a combination of the register hole and the vent hole to produce a better Bb but I don't know the details.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-07-06 11:18
The disadvantage of the more complex mechanisms, as can be attested to by bass clarinetists, is the contant need to keep them perfestly adjusted. The Mazzeo and Stubbins systems were wont to go out of adjustment.
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Author: Hans
Date: 2000-07-06 12:12
An additional throat Bb mechanism is also present on the Schmidt-Kolbe and reform-Boehm system, bassethorn and bass clarinet of Wurlitzer (german and boehm system) and also on current top-line models of other brands (Yamaha, Hammerschmidt, Schwenk&Seggelke, Rossi). My experience with the Wurlitzer Bb throat mechanism (different variants) is, that all Bb throat mechanisms are very stabile and needs no adjustment at all!
The effect is of course a much better throat Bb, but maybe far more important is an acoustical right position and dimension of the duodecime hole, resulting in a much better tuning of the clarinet.
It is for me a mystery that this system is not implemented on each clarinet. Maybe a patent question and also a raising of the costs of course.
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Author: steve
Date: 2000-07-06 15:36
Hans has found that many throat Bb improvement mechanisms work well and wonders why they are not more widely avaiable and used by folks...
imho, the answer is _tradition_!!!! clarinet players seem to me to be the most conservative instrumentalists with regards to their horns than any other wind players....trumpet players use the new heavy wall braced designs with integral mp/leadpipes (monette)...Warren Deck in the NYPO designed his own tuba...there are all sorts of french horn plumbing and valving systems...but clarinet people...BUFFET!!!...maybe leblanc....Wurlitzer/Oehler and don't even apply for the gig if you don't!!!...rossi?...eaton?....NEW Bb Mechanism? for_getit!!! full or reform boehm?? not in my backyard!!! Jack Brymer describes this resistance to change in his book with respect to the mazzeo ans SK systems...funny reading...
s.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2000-07-06 15:43
I think the reason is that it simply isn't necessary to make any changes to the throad b-flat to play it just as beautifully and in tune as any other note. Mechanisms often cause problems when playing throat a coming down from across the break.
Listen to Robert Marcellus on b-flat or a clarinet. His throat register is as beautiful as the rest of his registers. Proper venting with fingers and making sure the notes are tuned properly is a better solution than keywork.
steve wrote:
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Hans has found that many throat Bb improvement mechanisms work well and wonders why they are not more widely avaiable and used by folks...
imho, the answer is _tradition_!!!! clarinet players seem to me to be the most conservative instrumentalists with regards to their horns than any other wind players....trumpet players use the new heavy wall braced designs with integral mp/leadpipes (monette)...Warren Deck in the NYPO designed his own tuba...there are all sorts of french horn plumbing and valving systems...but clarinet people...BUFFET!!!...maybe leblanc....Wurlitzer/Oehler and don't even apply for the gig if you don't!!!...rossi?...eaton?....NEW Bb Mechanism? for_getit!!! full or reform boehm?? not in my backyard!!! Jack Brymer describes this resistance to change in his book with respect to the mazzeo ans SK systems...funny reading...
s.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-07-06 17:28
HAT wrote:
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I think the reason is that it simply isn't necessary to make any changes to the throad b-flat to play it just as beautifully and in tune as any other note. Mechanisms often cause problems when playing throat a coming down from across the break.
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Dave,
I'll have to disagree a bit here. If in fact a reliable mechanism can be made to help the throat tones, then I'm all for it. The less the tool gets in the way, the more time can be spent on working with the music. If one doesn't want a special mechanism for whatever reason - that's fair, but the conservatism of clarinetists does get in the way of innovation I think.
Marcellus was a one-of-kind genius on the clarinet, but even his instrument was heavily modified.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-07-06 20:58
We sure go over and over this subject! Having worked on cl's by 3 of the 4 majors, [sorry Yamaha, I'd like to see how well your best bass cl does it, at Cl Fest?], the best I've seen with "standard" Reg + A is my own LeBlanc L7, its as clean as with the trill key!! Not knowing of Fr or Ger [or EP and PCT] recent patents, most of the earlier ones have expired so are available if a buyer can find a willing maker at a reasonable price. I usually judge the cl's quality based on Bb clarity! Don
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Author: Hans
Date: 2000-07-07 07:15
It is important to know that the duodecime hole/key has a dual function: to produce the Bb throat in combination with the A key and the duodecime function itself. The combination of these two functions is acoustically far from ideal and has to lead to a compromise with the plain system. Technically spoken it is no problem at all to realise a fine throat Bb with the duodecime key in combination with the A key! The disadvantage is then that the twelfth of the clarinet are too wide. So the choosen compromise depends on brand and model. With an additional Bb mechanism this problem doesn't occur due to the single function of the duodecime hole/key in that situation.
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Author: steve
Date: 2000-07-07 13:36
both HAT and mark mentioned mr. marcellus with respect to throat tones...
HAT is right. Mr Marcellus' throat Bb was as beautiful as any other note he played...one of the most striking memories I have is seeing him play with the Cleveland under Boulez (?, 1971 or 72?) pp G, Bb, C in the 1re rhapsodie 1st measure....his Bb was centered, warm, languid...all of the "warm dark globe of oil with the candle in the middle", but each note had a different character....you could tell he was changing registers and playing the worst note on the horn and making everything beautiful, and using these tricks to build the tension required before the statement of the first theme....this was in the early 70's, and I still remember it like yesterday....and I agree with Mark...why not develop better tools? the clarinet is a tool to be used by the music-maker to make music!!!!
In the cleveland area where I got my first intense clarinet training it was : Buffet (tweaked by moenning if your parents would fork out the money), Kaspar, Morree, listen to Mr Marcellus, any other questions read Mr Bonade or talk to someone who studied with him....no exceptions...this is _the way_
it got good results, but it was sure a conservative tradition!!!
s.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2000-07-07 17:48
Mark Charette wrote:
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'Heavily modified' to you. . .properly adjusted to others!
Believe me, he picked up my clarinet, reed and mouthpiece on several occasions and sounded exactly the same as on his clarinets. And this was in the late 80s.
My point is: we are all looking for excuses for why we aren't perfect. If we would just work on it instead of looking for imperfect temporary solutions, we would be much better off.
Any of us would give almost anything to have the sound and intonation of a Wright, Marcellus, etc. Are we saying we are just not good enough to come close on our own with the same equipment? I hope not!
Clarinetists are completely open to innovation. As long as 'innovation' means improvements without trade-offs. I have yet to see a throat bflat mechanism that didn't have tradeoffs. Others disagree.
On the other hand, I don't like the sound of the side bflat, it does not sound even to me. But for someone who has not worked on producing a quality bflat (which you should do anyway) the side seems better. I was that way in high school too!
Mark Charette wrote:
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I'll have to disagree a bit here. If in fact a reliable mechanism can be made to help the throat tones, then I'm all for it. The less the tool gets in the way, the more time can be spent on working with the music. If one doesn't want a special mechanism for whatever reason - that's fair, but the conservatism of clarinetists does get in the way of innovation I think.
Marcellus was a one-of-kind genius on the clarinet, but even his instrument was heavily modified.
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