 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2007-06-21 23:55
Attachment: Bells1.jpg (179k)
Attachment: Bells2.jpg (174k)
Recently, I was able to purchase in an Internet auction, a set of five unbranded bells -- reportedly from an estate sale -- that had a striking resemblance to the Mazzeo clarinet bell's distinctive shape. Upon receipt, I found that one of the five bells is very close to the bell on a production Paris Selmer Mazzeo clarinet (Model 10 or 9*) while the others vary somewhat from the production design in their girth (narrowness), dimensions, or weight of the overall bell. Two pictures of the five bells (with a Selmer Model 10 Mazzeo bell; 2nd from right in the two pictures) are attached. None of the bells is branded, but all have a number of features (rings, style of finishing wood) that make them look similar to the Mazzeo bell shipped on the Paris instruments.
Donald Hinson (who fixed some chips and restored the wood on the bells) and I have guessed that these might be prototypes of the Mazzeo bell design. It appears to me that one of the five bells is virtually identical to the production Selmer one while the other four have wider or narrower dimensions and lighter or heavier designs suggesting that someone was systematically experimenting with alternate designs.
Any guesses?
George
Post Edited (2007-06-22 00:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-22 00:24
Weren't the Series 9 (or maybe earlier) Mazzeo bells a straight cone on the outside rather than having a slight inward curve?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-06-22 02:21
There is only one that is an actual Mazzeo Bell. My eye tells me that the others are two narrow, too wide, or too flared. I've played Mazzeo Clarinets for 50 years, but all I too can do, is guess. I have known and seen many bells with no ring , all sizes and shapes. Prototypes, sure, why not? The purpose of the bell was to bring up the pitch and ameliorate the timbre of the middle b and c. The low e and f however, were always a bit bright and sharp, at least to the uninitiated, but Mazzeo made the point that the reason for this was that clarinetists suffer with those "bell" notes. They are always trying to make them even with the notes around them as well. There is a vague possibility that some of the bells were specifically made for the full boehm Mazzeo, which may have required a slightly different bell. The reason for this was the venting was better for the low e and the middle b when you had the extra key for low eb/bb. My suggestion therefore would be to compare the full boehm bell with the bell from an ordinary plain boehm. If they are the same sixe, well then my idea may be incorrect, however having played the things for so long, I do think that low Eb/Bb key changes the resonance of the low e, part of its major function. Many clarinetists in the Boston area played full boehm clarinets, playing all music on one horn, in which case, the low Eb if fully in use much of the time. Perhaps the bells were different. There would be acoustical cause for them to be .I cannot compare for I only have full boehm Mazzeos.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2007-06-22 02:39
Chris, the 2 nine-star Mazzeo clarinets I own both have slightly flared bells and are indistinguishable from the Series 10s. George
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-06-22 02:59
Now this is really exciting! Sherman may be the Mazzeo expert among us although there are probably others that were students of RM that could add some depth.
I have very nice Bundy Mazzeo BTW. Perfect condition.
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2007-06-22 11:06
Hi Sherman,
As you know, I have been able to secure both "regular" and full Boehm examples of the Mazzeo Series 9* and Series 10 Selmer Paris instruments. I had never thought to compare the bells of the full Boehm models to those of the standard models. My impression is that the bells on both the regular and full Boehm instruments (and both Series 9* annd 10) are the same, but I will pull exemplars out of their cases today and compare them and post the findings.
Because of all the focus on the on the Mazzeo mechanism for throat notes (and patent issues with Stubbins), I had never thought that there had been much design emphasis on the Mazzeo bell design, although Selmer certainly marketed the bell in their sales literature from the period and (as you well know) the bell made the instrument stand out from other instruments. From your post, I infer that I was in error in assuming that the bell design was something of an "afterthought." So far as I know, the bell design was never patented, although perhaps there was some attempt to do so.
As for the "sound" of these possible prototypes, to my (amateur) ear, there appear to be some differences, although this might be because I want to hear differences. In part these differences might be because the bells to have different weights (the smaller one is actually heavier because of its thicker walls) and the balance of the instrument is different depending upon the bell used.
George
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2007-06-22 11:11
Author: Hank Lehrer (---.buckeyecom.net - ISP in Perrysburg, OH United States)
Date: 2007-06-22 02:59
I have very nice Bundy Mazzeo BTW. Perfect condition.
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Hank,
The plastic Bundy Mazzeo has a thinner wall than that of the Paris models (perhaps due to the materials), and the Selmer Signet model has a somewhat thicker wall. I also believe that both the Signet and Bundy models had a slightly different exterior flare pattern. I would guess that the variations were introduced by Selmer, not Mazzeo.
George
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-06-22 13:08
George,
No question about the thickness issue with the Bundy. I will be interested in seeing what you find out with your measurements but it would seem that we are going to need comments from an acoustics engineer very soon.
BTW, as I said before on this BB, I can not use the Mazzeo to its fullest potential since I keep the RH on for much of my bridge crossing and re-crossing. However, the covered thumb hole is a terrific beginner assist.
HRL
Post Edited (2007-06-22 14:19)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-06-22 13:51
Velly interesting, George, I have a bit [possibly confusion] to add. ITEM #1 - Of the 5[6?] R M system US patents, the only "drawing" representation of the bell is in the "parent" pat. 2,867,146, at # 24, re: which I have ?not yet? found any description !!. I'll get better lighting [for my fading eyes] and read more carefully. If there is any significant flaring of the bell's exterior, in the pic, its very slight. ITEM #2- I recently had here, for minor repair/tweaking, a student's NoName plastic cl with the not-ringed, slightly-flared[?] bell, which the ?first? owner [and I] believed to be a Bundy [the original ? case is]. Its most unusual feature, [from a standard 17/6] however, was its Left Thumb PAD/cup, NOT ring !, with a small [vent] hole in it, much like the "half hole" on larger cls and oboe. This [? another prototype?] cl "lives" only about 20 miles away, so is accessible if desired, just ask. Will pursue the pat info, will check for possible Canadian patents, can anyone check for possible French/British/German patents to RM? Today's "mysteries", rite? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: redwine
Date: 2007-06-24 11:01
Hello George,
I recently had a computer crash and have lost your e-mail address. Would you contact me? Thanks.
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2007-06-25 17:28
A little more detective work on production Selmer Paris Mazzeo clarinet bells ...
I looked at the bells from two Series 9* Mazzeo clarinets and compared them to the bells on three Series 10 Mazzeo clarinets.
The findings ...
Chris P is correct, the bells on the 9* Mazzeos are trivially less flared. They are also slightly heavier than the Series 10 bells. The walls of the bells on the Series 10 Mazzeo bells are thinner.
Series 9* Mazzeo bells are unmarked. The Series 10 bells are all marked "10" or Series 10, although all three bells I have are marked differently.
Comparing the full Boehm Series 10 bell to two Series 10 "regular" Boehm clarinets indicates that the bells are identical; full Boehm bells are not different from those used on regular Boehm Mazzeos. The same is true comparisng one Series 9* regular Boehm Mazzeo bell to a Series 9* full Boehm bell.
I conclude the following.
a) Either Mazzeo or Selmer or both continued to evolve the Mazzeo system bells over time.
b) Selmer did not use different bells on full Boehm models. Whether Mazzeo worked on these (as Sherman Friedland suggests) or not, apparently Selmer did not ship special ones for full Boehm instruments, at least on the instruments I own.
George
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-06-25 18:09
Interesting, George, don't quite know what to conclude re: bell-research? for later cls. MY 1954 CT bell [with the "full" marketing? logo on it] is ringed and appears conventional. I have begun getting well REacquainted with this CT , a D---good playing horn, needing it for a 3rd cl part [not bass] on a diff. arr. of OKLA! [centennial version??], for a "patriotic concert" next week-end, all else is on my good bass cl. We do appreciate your look into this area of cl mfgr. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-06-25 20:13
This reminds me of days gone by, of my youth more than 50 years ago, being sent to Paris by an anonymous donor, studying with Marcel Jean and Nadia Boulanger, and visiting the Selmer factory on several occasions, ferried there by Jean Selmer in the black cobra Citroen with the air suspension, totally without noise, lunching with the Selmers and visiting the factory. I remember the apprentice room where each of the dozen or so young people were no more than 13 or 14 years old, seeing the many clarinets and saxophones on the line and meeting with several of the key people.There was a machine which dispensed wine at break time. I always purchased several instruments to bring back to students, costing about 200 or 250 dollars, brand new in the case, At that time, the Mazzeo System didn't take much of the line of instruments and bells which I saw, but I have played many many since then, I think perhaps 60 or 70 instruments, even repairing them at one point. The bells of these instruments were never the focal point, in truth, they were a balance detriment.They made the clarinet feel strangely unbalanced though the evenessof the instrument was improved, and they made the middle B seem always thin and sharp, this in contrast to the many years of struggling to support the sound of the ordinary middle B, made stuffy and slightly flat by the metal which cut into the wood 3/8s of an inch. Mazzeo's teaching method was simple and without exception: "even" was the ideal, "even "was the answer, and all of the many different methods from which we all worked were with making the scale of the clarinet totally even, note to note.
Prior to this posting I had never seen 6 or 8 of these bells in a line. Now, I have seen them, and after having read the postings , I have only this to say. The people who have played on these pictured barrels or the others of which everyone speaks have not play-tested them one to the other to determine differences. Having said that one can only conclude that as the bells were made, there were either made from ordinary finished bells or not. We don't know. And for that matter, nobody has come up with a line of 6 regular Selmer bells in a row to determine if in fact visual differences exist. And if they had, what would the conclusions have been?
Having seen at the factory hundreds of clarinets being made by many many artisans, I would imagine the bell manufacture was analgous to the fellow at the station who changes your oil. It is not rocket science, and neither I think was the making of Mazzeo System bells.
Sometimes I would like to have the opportunity to spend a day testing all of the bells shown. I think that there would not be a definitive answer to the whys and wherefores as to the difference in the appearance of the Mazzeo System Bells. Could I have been aware in the difference in sound?
Was there any difference?
It seems as if there is more interest in Rosario Mazzeos contribution to the hardware of the clarinet now than there was back in 1955-57. It was a wonderful and practical invention. It should have been taken up and purchased by the clarinet fraternity. Because it was made on a Selmer instrument and because the world played Buffet at the time, there were only Selmer Mazzeo systems to try. And so, while there was talk of Yamaha being interested in the patents, when Rosario passed on, so too did the Mazzeo clarinet.
Sherman Friedland
Post Edited (2007-06-25 20:14)
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