 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-17 21:00
I've recently posted on one of GBK's threads, but don't want to take it over. So I thought I'd pose my problem here.
I've heard it called stacking, and I've also heard it is my weight. But I don't think it is my weight, necessarily. I consider myself to be a fair clarinetist, but not great. There is one huge thing holding me back from getting to the next level of my playing. I've always been told, for a good ten years now, that I needed to draw as much air into my lungs as deep as possible with each breath I take. I have been doing this and I must admit, it fixes my pitch problem. But it has created some worse problems. I always feel like I have to exhale after a time, or a long phrase. I can get through a third of a movement or solo work, and I start to focus more on this than the music. My body is telling me to exhale and take a new breath, but I can't because I am in the middle of a very important part of the music. I try to exhale at the next possible point, but there is not enough time to do so and inhale agian properly. (An example would be the opening of the Copland Concerto, or a slow movement from Mozart, Or Brahms, etc.) It simply will not allow me to focus on making music; singing. People have told me I am more of a technition then a musician, and I can see why, but the problem isn't that I can't sing, but I seem to be fighting myself. I would hate to think that great players like Gigliotti could be wrong in this technique, so the problem has to be me.
I"ve never won this battle, as elementary as it may seem. It could be the fact that I'm overweight, but I really don't think that is the real problem, as I have seen and heard, and heard of very large players phrase though passages without any effort at all. If they were struggling, they sure hid it well.
I could do so much better if I could just get past this.
Does anyone have any words of wisdom on this topic. It really feels like I start to hyperventilate.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-17 21:23
I have noticed a pattern that larger bodies have significantly more lung capacity than smaller bodies. Have you tried taking less air to fix this problem?
what is your setup? you might be more comfortable on a mouthpiece that lets you use more air- ie. bigger tip opening and/or lay.
Also, breathing in/out in a phrase does not really destroy the music as much as we think it does. Try to be more liberal in breathing.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2007-06-17 21:45
I think that taking HUGE breaths all the time is barking up the wrong tree. I suggest taking the amount of air that you need for the passage you are about to play. This will require some experimentation at first, especially if you're used to sucking in your full lung capacity to play two measures of music.
I think it's most important to get a good start when you're performing.
This is how I'd approach the Brahms F minor sonata (which I personally don't find particularly difficult in terms of breath, but it's better to walk before running, with say the Schubert Arpeggione sonata)
The clarinet starts with four bars of rest.
I'd spend three bars enjoying the atmosphere that Brahms creates, and then one bar of breathing. Three beats of breath at this tempo should be sufficient for the opening phrase. (it's long, but we aren't inflating tires here, we're playing the clarinet) Here I'd try breathing through the nose, not the mouth. I find you get a relaxing feeling from getting a breath through the nose once in a while (Alan Hacker clued me into this once in a masterclass), and I personally find this most useful when I'm getting started.
In bar twelve, you have the opportunity to refresh your air supply, and I'd use it, but don't overdo it! In bar sixteen, I'd get as much as you can, as it's a good length passage, and I wouldn't try to breath until the second and third beats of bar twenty-five, if possible. Here at bar 25, I'd get just what you need for the four beats you must play, and then get a good supply for the triplets, as you'll need a good pressurized airstream to get the triplets smoothly connected in bars 28 through 30.
In bars thirty-one and thirty-two, you have the opportunity to collect yourself, and also to GET RID OF CARBON DIOXIDE. I'd exhale for three or four beats and inhale for the remainder as you need that good pressurized airstream again for the triplets.
In bar 36, we have four bars of rest, in which to expel any Carbon Dioxide, maybe take a nice relaxing natural breath in and out, and then get a good breath before playing the next passage. I'd also probably take a catch breath on the downbeat of bar 42, just to get back whatever you used in the previous two bars, as you'll need it to get through the next phrase. I wouldn't breath between the B-flat octave at bar 46, for two reasons. Here you should be concentrating on not dumping the phrase, and also getting a well-tuned octave, which is not so easy between these two tones. I think that's plenty to be thinking about at that time.
I don't think I need to go through the entire movement, but I hope I've gotten my concept across in my analysis of these 50 bars.
Good luck!
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-17 21:46
The equipment I'm using is a Buffet R13 that dates to 1966, but the bore is in great shape. It has a smaller diameter but blows as easy as anything new I've played on.
Chadash re-cut A barrel to fit my clarinet
Gigliotti P Face mouthpiece that has been adjusted by Andy Stevens in
Denver. (I'm not sure as to the measuements, but it takse a
3.5-4 vandoren blu box reed.)
M13 Lyre- It happens the same with this mpc also. It is a good mpc though
-Burt Hara has played on it and he likes it. Tip: 102.5
Baffle: 4
I forget what the other two measurements are, but the numbers are 22 and 35. I know you make mouthpieces, so I'd guess you know what they're for.
A Gigliotti lig. on the Gigliotti.
A Bonade inverted on the M13 Lyre
crnichols: Thanks.
In other words, Pace myself? I've always thought this, but when I'd get to my lessons I'd alwas get hit on not drawing enough air. It's been a while since I've been with my teacher, since I moved to MN five yrs ago, so I've often wondered if this was just to form a better breathing habbit, because it really helped my pitch (I naturally blow really flat-and it is not my embouchure.). I'll have to give your help a chance. I'll report back in a few weeks.
Skygardner: Come to think about it, I was told to try some different mouthpieces by my teacher in Denver. He is probably thinking along the same lines as you. I'll have to give him a call. Do you have any suggestions?
Post Edited (2007-06-17 21:58)
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2007-06-17 22:24
Yes, pace yourself.
I always suspect that this sort of advice, taking very big breaths, is a tool used for teaching one to use their lungs. I remember reading a Gigliotti article in the Clarinet journal about how most people naturally breath in a very shallow manner. I found his advice a bit extreme, but it has certainly worked for many successful clarinet players.
Let me know how it turns out!
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2007-06-17 22:48
Check my latest post on the GBK's orig thread. You may find the explanation useful. Apols if it seems elementary... it was meant to be.
Add in being apprehensive about being hypoxic, then we're in trouble.
It may not suit you, but I mark all my solo parts with rigourous breath marks..... eg in's and out's, and relative depths. I experiment with alterations to each, so that breathing is both phrase-sensitive and physically as undemanding as possible. The end result is intended to be one where a musical performance has been executed AND I'm still standing without fatigue. Once familiar with the piece, the prescribed breathing is mostly executed on "autopilot" without getting in the way of a nice interpretation.
BobT..............and another thought........why do you always feel better after a deep sigh..........well you've just rid yourself of a small accumulation of toxicant Co2.
BobT
Post Edited (2007-06-18 16:40)
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Author: D
Date: 2007-06-19 16:31
have you tried opening your mouth wider when you exhale? sounds daft, but it might help.
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-06-19 17:59
When you take a breath, it's not how much you take in but the quality you take in. I have had teachers in the past call it "poised" air. I'm a big guy and hardly ever do I need to take the biggest breath I can. I can never get rid of all the air before it starts to get stale(the oxygen is absorbed from the air leaving waste that you need to get rid of).
When you do this you create a lot of tension in your body and actually start to limit your capacity and eventually you need to stop and exhale a couple of times to clean everything out. Support in the sound has nothing to do with how much air is in your lungs.
What is important is to open your mouth around the mouthpiece and take a nice relaxed breath deep into your abdomen area. Your stomach should expand as the air comes in and then your stomach should stay somewhat flexed as you push the air out as your stomach shrinks back to its normal size. Every breath should be taken this way with minimal effort and minimal strain. If you strain in any way to take a breath then your not breathing corectly and the same problem will start to happen all over again.
It takes practice to make this process consistant and efficent and the best way for me during my studies was to practice this with slow legato etudes. Your breaths should have the same gentle, legato quality to them as the notes you are playing. The breath should never be 100% but more in the 70-80% range and in almost all situations that is all you need. Any kind of strain in your upper body will lead to nothing but problems.
It's not the quantity but the quality.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-06-19 21:25
There are almost no clarinet parts where you have to play so long without a breath that your air gets stale. The only ones I can think of are band transcriptions of orchestral string parts. Tannhauser Overture, for example, has three pages of continuous 16th notes. But you have a whole section playing, and you simply breathe when you need to to.
Your problem (which I have myself) is that it's tempting to keep going until you run out of air, or oxygen. The solution is to take smaller breaths and breathe at each phrase break.
That's what music is about. Listen to good singers. They bring each phrase to an end, breathe and start anew.
The first phrase of the Mozart Concerto is two bars. There's no physical need to breathe there, but there's a **musical** need. And you breathe again after two more bars. Then you go for four bars.
The Mozart Concerto is built on this plan: two bars, two similar bars, and four bars in which the pattern is extended. My favorite metaphor comes from an old World War I song:
We'll bury the hatchet,
Bury the hatchet,
Bury the hatchet in the Kaiser's head!
If you sang this without breathing, you'd lose the meaning. Just so, if you play the first 8 bars of the Mozart Concerto without breathing, you lost the meaning.
Exactly the same thing happens at the opening of the Mozart second movement, and the third movement.
The first movement of the Brahms Second Sonata is two bars and a breath, one bar and a breath (really), one more bar and a breath, and finally four bars.
Music is about breathing. You're lucky you play a wind instrument. Many pianists and string players never learn.
Ken Shaw
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Author: KennyM
Date: 2007-06-20 01:33
I also struggle with this issue. I highly doubt that you have the same issue that I have. I had been having horrible chest pains during performance and felt the intense need to exhale. I was having a routine endoscopy due to acid reflux and they found a very large hiatal hernia that goes in and out of my thoracic cavity.
The air pressure on long phrases would sometimes be hard on me. It's recommended that I have surgery but it's actually considered "elective" with my insurance. I'm told that I must first lose weight before surgery.
I still continue to play the clarinet as my doctor said it does not endanger me but I may feel discomfort. So if you hurt or have acid reflux you may want to get checked. Again, I have a rare issue but just a thought.
Deep in the Heart of Texas
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-20 22:10
This is what I've been taught. You take a deep breath low into your lungs. as soon as you fill up, take another deep breathe. At this point, your diaphram is pushing the air out automatically. When there are rests (short ones) don't exhale. When you run low on air take another long deep breath. I was to practice this especially in my scales in thirds very slowly. The reality is that this always keeps pressure at the back of the reed. Add that to the embouchure style, which forces you to stop closing off your throat, and it fixes a lot of bad habits, instantly.
This did in fact help my intonation, and it pushed me up to a harder reed. Both of which added to my pitch. But...... Now I can't exhale in time to refresh my air supply when I need it.
This philosophy came straight from Anthony Gigliotti ( I didn't study with him, but one of his students.). So I can't help but think the problem is with me, and how I understood this style of breathing. I can't be a problem of who taught me and how he teaches to breath.
I am a large man, so maybe my lungs are too large to breathe that deep. But so was my teacher. When I get my horn back from my repairman this week, I'm going to work on my Brahms middle movement from the Sonata#1. It's been killing me there. I'll put the advise given to me here to use. (I wish I had more time with my teacher in Denver, I know this could've been fixed before I moved here.)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-21 08:48
It sounds like you are taking too much air, at least the way you describe it.
as far as your mouthpiece- I am only a bit familiar with the M13 Lyre. As I remember it, it was something I would have been comfortable using and I am a slight fellow. And people have told me that I like more close mouthpieces. The tip is close and the lay is short. For you, that might be too small.
I suggest that you try a few bigger/longer mouthpieces. I am not familiar with all of the VD models but I think there are comparitive facing charts floating around. Stick with VDs unless you can get to a store that you can take your time at.
But before you go 'shopping', try taking less air- regardless of what your teacher said then, it doesn't seem to work now.
Ps. I should mention that I only sampled an M13 for a few minutes a while ago- take my advice on that lightly if you feel like.
Post Edited (2007-06-22 05:12)
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-25 05:45
Well, I got my horn back. It's taken a while to get it back into playing condition. It broke down on me last January, and for reasons I won't get in to, I wasn't able to get it fixed untill now. I'm glad I have it back in good shape again, it was like missing a a part of myself.
Anyhow, I finally have working reeds again, and I've been working on my long tones to get my chops back. I noticed I really chewed up previous mouthpiece patches. So I'm being especially anal about not biting. Even double checking myself by switching to a full double lip from time to time. (Boy, am I out of shape!) I'm starting to wonder if that wasn't a large part of my problem with breath control. Would anyone agree? So, now I'll put the advise to work and see what helps.
I'm playing my p facing Gigliotti again, since it is a longer lay, and closer tip. However, it isn't as flexable as the M13 Lyre. I may just have to deal with it. (Besides, I think it sounds a lot better, especially at a distance where you want it to sound good.)
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