 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-06-18 04:06
[post deleted - it's a small world]
Post Edited (2007-07-16 00:02)
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-06-18 04:25
Kevin wrote:
>
> My solfege teacher, a Juilliard trained composer, told me
> earlier this year that the best musicians in the world are not
> those playing in the Berlin Phil or the Chicago Symphony,
> clinging to a Mahler Symphony and the tenure that comes with
> it. The best musicians are really those studio doublers out on
> the streets of NY and LA who try to find gigs on a day-by-day
> basis, sight-reading each gig with the fear that if they mess
> up they'll never play another one, and living without knowing
> what tomorrow will bring. His words haven't stopped ringing in
> my ears ever since.
>
> >
This is interresting, because I have a teacher who told me the EXACT same thing.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-06-18 05:41
It's a bit of everything.
A bit of BS, a bit of snobbishness, a bit of genuine opinion. Depends entirely on who you're talking to. Lots of people are genuinely sensitive to certain aspects of music, lots of people have ridiculously high standards, lots of people make outrageous claims that nobody calls them on, lots of people have only heard one performance of something and have declared it superior, lots of people have an emotional attachment to one way of doing something, lots of people bag on something at random to fit in, and lots of people get off on bagging on other musicians. Most people do a little of each. The key is knowing when to call BS.
I've always found Beethoven III to be an agreeable piece of music, and had heard quite a few decent recordings of it. I figured that I'd heard it about as well as it could reasonably be played, give or take a small margin of inspiration. Then, last fall, I heard a Fuhrtwangler/Berlin recording of it. It was completely and unequivocally head and shoulders above every other excellent recording I'd heard. Since then, every other recording sounds like the musicians are just playing notes to get through and couldn't care less about the music.
The other day, I heard an orchestra on the radio playing Strauss waltzes metronomically. We were hypothesizing at what low-grade hackjob orchestra was responsible for this botching, and were shocked that it was London, of which I generally have a high opinion.
Anyways, I think that with all the hyper-obsessing on minutiae we as classical musicians do, finding random crap to talk trash about and be perhaps sometimes unjustifiably extremely opinionated about may help keep us in some way partially sane.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-18 07:43
Well, it's what we call the "dermatologist at the beach syndrome" - being an expert and trained to spot minute flaws you simply can't enjoy it any more, or think it'd be naïve and unprofessional to do so.
Probably actors, when attending Hamlet or Pygmalion, are inclined to do the same. Besides, criticizing is ever so chic, especially when it appears to be coming out of a "competent" mouth.
Poor people who can't simply sit and enjoy an evening - a live performance is more than just listening to the musicians do their thing.
--
Ben
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Author: Mike Clarinet
Date: 2007-06-18 08:29
The 'London Symphony Orchestra of New York is better than the Splatthaus Orkester of Viener Schnitzel' thing is exactly the same as a sports fan who says their team is better than any other team and any other team is a load of rubbish. A sports team, like an orchestra, is going to have its ups and downs as there are changes in personnel and management both within itself and amongst its (I hate the term when connected to music) competitors, The die-hard fans will not hear a word against their team, even if justified. However, the best groups will be the best because they will attract the best players (both music and sport).
Maybe a conservatory-trained musician will have knowledge that us mere amateur mortals do not have, but the people they are criticizing are the ones playing that piece on that occasion, and are interpreting it the way they and that conductor see it, and have the regular orchestra job. It almost seems like 'it's not my way, so it's wrong'. In the technology world (where I work) the same thing exists: we call it ' Not Invented Here syndrome'. Whilst there are plenty of 'wrong' ways to do a lot of things, there is often more than one 'right' way. My way may not be your way, but that does not mean (from my point of view) that my way is the only way and your way is wrong. When the conservatory student gets a regular orchestra job, they can show the rest of the world-class orchestra how to do it.
Just my Monday morning 2-pennyworth.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-06-18 09:20
Quote:
My solfege teacher, a Juilliard trained composer, told me earlier this year that the best musicians in the world are not those playing in the Berlin Phil or the Chicago Symphony, clinging to a Mahler Symphony and the tenure that comes with it. The best musicians are really those studio doublers out on the streets of NY and LA who try to find gigs on a day-by-day basis, sight-reading each gig with the fear that if they mess up they'll never play another one, and living without knowing what tomorrow will bring. His words haven't stopped ringing in my ears ever since. That's sort of the view I've taken. I'm not downplaying symphony players at all. It just, to me, blows me away when I see someone that can display mastery of multiple instruments, and to such a level where they are known to be able to play something perfect. The FIRST time. And on a VARIETY of instruments.
Take a look at John J. Moses' resume one of these days. I saw it a while ago when it was brought up in a thread and my jaw dropped. He's been in the pit orchestras for the openings of such great broadway shows, a tremendous list of movie soundtracks which he's played on, and it is really amazing to see all the different jobs he's received and continued receiving. And this is not even counting the commercials and other movies/shows which he probably didn't even have room on his resume to post.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-06-18 15:04
Kevin,
If you need a day job when you finish at the conservatory, you might look around to find a place to exercise your tact -perhaps in the Foreign Service. Awesome.
I'm developing a HUGE respect for the precision playing of my acquaintances in the local professional groups, but still prefer joyous playing over metronomic precision.
But, I also prefer to practice in my resonant "great" room over the stuffy walk-in closet.
Am I becoming a classical music snob?
Meanwhile, the Spokane Symphony has "heard" its audiences and made a radical departure from conventional symphonic repertoire for its next season. SHUDDER. At least the chamber music soirées will still be player-option and enthusiastically presented.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-06-18 16:16
Bob, if I have left the impression that I feel myself to be exempt from the snob category, that is not the case. If i were to rewrite my original post above, I'd have made more of an effort to imply that my thoughts and complaints were self inclusive.
I'm sure my non-clarinet playing friends have thought similar things when I try to explain to them the differences between the French and American and New York and Cleveland schools of clarinet playing.
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2007-06-18 20:33
All good points here! I've struggled with this question very much myself over the years as I've moved from a young, rabid clarinet player to an older, wiser, much-humbled, and better musician. I can't say enough about the session players, doublers, and pit orchestra players who fly by the seat of their pants and pull it off every time. Not to mention the klezmer players who we used to scoff at as doing everything "wrong," yet who blow us away with their agility, range, accuracy and power.
Also, having kicked around Boston for the better part of half a century, I know that we tend to have a self-image issue, not only about our musicians but about our visual artists, writers, dancers, actors -- all the arts, and even rock and roll for that matter. Young people especially (e.g., conservatory students) tend to think that the real action is always happening elsewhere -- they seem furious at times for having landed in a town they consider a cultural backwater, and they tear it down whenever they can. It's just not world class, they'll say. Well, if Boston has one institution that's truly world class, it's the BSO. Aside from MIT and Harvard, it's the one Boston institution that people know about anywhere I go in the world.
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-06-18 21:11
Could it be, and mind you I'm not saying it is, but maybe it is a good thing to reflect on once in awhile that all this slamming of great players, orchestras, composers etc, is because we have people trying to make a career of something that in reality just isn't that important? If every professional orchestra in the world stopped existing, it would be sad, but how much of the world would even notice? Of course we can say the same of absolutely any profession except for the few which would make the world a better place if they didn't exist.
I love music now more than I have at any time in my life, and part of the reason is that it is no longer the all consuming thing. After all, aspiring symphony players want to dedicate their lives to living in a museum. That's ok. Good museums are nice to have around, but it can be a rather small world.
Perhaps, many of your fellow conservatorians (is that a word?) will have fewer of the conversations you mention when they have had a child, when a parent has died, when a close friend is lost to illness way before thier life seems to be over. They just take it a bit to seriously. If you don't congratulations! It took me a long time to learn.
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-06-18 21:36
Bubalooy, while no doubt the symphony orchestra circle is a small one in the grand realm of things, I'm not sure if I'm ready to buy the fact that lack of life experience is what feeds the overly nitpicking nature of classical musicians.
Alex and Ben have offered pretty good explanations above. Some are genuine opinions. Some are just trying to fit in. Some are experiencing dermatologist-on-the-beach syndrome.
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-06-19 20:57
Kevin, I didn't say that lack of life experience was what fed overly nitpicking classical musicians, only overly nitpicking conservatorians. My observation is that as people get older (I am tempted to say mature, but not with any of the negative implications it might cause) they enjoy and appreciate a wider variety of musical performances. Does that mean they become less discriminating, no, just a little less rigid, as they listen more to what the performers are actually doing and contemplate why instead of hearing, for example, only that it is different from their favorite recording. I could be wrong, hard as it is to admit, but it is my observation and opinion.
By the way, and this is nitpicking no doubt, if you don't buy the idea, you shouldn't refer to it as a fact. (I am a bit sorry to say that and maybe shouldn't)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-06-21 18:03
I think it's part of the atmosphere. There's a lot of commonality among the students at the conservatory, and that can lead to a bit of xenophobia about those who are--to borrow from another geek medium--"not of the body."
I can remember trying to break loose from the 'Jazz Nazis' during my own college days.
You can also compare it to the more pedestrian practice of getting together with folks for some beers, and then spending the whole time talking about the minute differences (at the risk of throwing up, let me say NUANCES) between beers of different brands and nations. (this is why I don't brake for microbreweries!)
I can remember a friend who came onto the community band circuit in my area some years ago, who had tremendous capability but a lot of real-world cluelessness. (I wonder if today he would be dianosed with Aspbergers?)
Talking about whatever didn't meet his refined tastes was his way of making conversation. Talking about how your sound or your equipment sucked was his way of making friends with you. I thought of him instantly when I read the post about the 'dermatologist at the beach.'
Kevin, your post serves well to illustrate how even very accomplished people become slaves to their influences, personal histories, and schools of thought. What I learned in college is that there is no one more reactionary than an artist--at least about things that he didn't think of first himself.
It's a good thing for us all to be on guard for in our own thinking and behavior.
Allen Cole
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2007-06-22 01:31
One thing I've found with myself is that I tend to stick with the interpretation of a particular piece that I heard first. For example, the very first time I heard Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet No. 2 that first movement just blew my mind away (not to mention the second - the whole piece is simply, in my opinion, one of the best pieces ever written). You know what tempo (at least the main theme)? Quarter ~72. WAY slower than most if not all recordings or professional performances of it. But the piece had stuck in my mind as such and when I heard a later recording done by the Oslo Symphony the faster tempo just made it sound very pedestrian - playing the notes just to get through the piece. But in reality it was a great performance as well of a moderately difficult piece.
So this goes to the idea of overexposure. When you are overexposed to a piece as I was with that first recording you tend to have an affinity toward that type of performance. I live in DC and I love the National Symphony. At school I am in Pittsburgh and I can't get enough of the PSO. And my do they have an exciting season coming up with Slatkin as the new guest conductor and Corigliano as the composer of the year.
Anyway, good discussion topic.
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