 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fmcat
Date: 2007-06-16 19:38
Hello, everyone.
I'd first like to introduce myself. I play in many high school/regional bands, have sat 1st and 2nd chair in most. I play a setup that you can see in my signature below.
My question today is about a clarinet which my repair tech is selling me.
He has offered me for $1000 flat a Selmer 10S, which he agreed to overhaul, repolish, reoil, recork and repad with synthetic pads. It has no cracks or bands. He advises me that if someone else were to do this sort of work, it would have costed $3000.
However, the last clarinet I bought from him, a B12 Buffet, he sold at $450 and advised me that what I could have purchased a new one for was about $1000. That did not end up being entirely true, and I sort of regret not buying a new one for about $50 more, however, I trust the repair tech, as he used to be my band teacher, and I know he would go head over heels to get my clarinet fixed for me in one day if I needed.
So my questions to you are, what should I look for when I try the instrument out? Will the M13 and EDII sound good as good with the Selmer as it does with the Buffet?
Buffet B12, ED II Ligature, M13 Mouthpiece, Strength 5 V12 Vandoren
Local 281 - Clarinet Player
Post Edited (2007-06-16 19:38)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-06-16 20:17
If he is selling this clarinet as his own I would say that it would be up to him if he want to sell it fully overhuled and you could try it then and if you like it you buy it or if you don't like it don't buy it. And btw 3000$ is more than what new 10s costs.
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-06-16 22:35
let's see. you have had buyers remorse buying from him once, and your letting your friendship with him distort your buying habits. keep this in mind, it is YOUR money. money is a universal language which everyone can understand. All i can say is know your prices and do some searching. $1000 can go a long way.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2007-06-16 22:36
A decent overhaul by a good tech, including the operations you described should be around $350. His statement suggesting that $2000 would be the usual price for this kind of overhaul, even by the top technicians in the field, is ridiculous. But is this what you meant to say? Your statement about being able to buy at new B12 for $500, yet talking about a price of $1000 is the confusing.
What does he mean by "synthetic pads"? Valentino pads are "synthetic," and are excellent, but there are plastic pads out there that are trash.
The selling price for the Selmer 10S at $1000 is neither a great price nor a cheap price. I would expect to see a top figure for this instrument at around $1500. However, everything depends on the playing characteristics of the instrument and how good a job he does working on it.
Although I don't want to seeme to question your tech's honesty in any way, especially considering that I'm not exactly sure that the figures you give are what you meant to give, when you're dealing with instrument technicians, "trust" does not necessarily mean "the best work." One may be perfectly trustworthy and extremely helpful, yet still not have the skills and experience to do a really competent job.
I trust my family doctor, but I wouldn't want him to do brain surgery on me.
B.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-17 02:07
Here's a starting point for your research on how to select a clarinet. I note that near the end of the article, Tom Ridenour (who wrote it) has a positive comment about Selmers in general and the 10S II in particular.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/select.htm
I interpret the tech's comment to mean that other tech's/stores would ask around $3,000 for a 10S in superb condition, not that they would charge $2,000 for an overhaul. He's possibly basing his comments on new list prices, or possibly local store prices from the pre-internet era. Some sellers still do that. I think it's a lack of contact with reality rather than dishonesty in most cases. I would say he errs on the high side, compared to a national market. By way of comparison, Howarth's, a reputable dealer in London, has a 10S II in apparently very good condition, for about $2,000 U.S. plus shipping. The 10SII is a newer model than a straight 10S and has a bit more intrinsic market value at this point. Neither model is still in production, BTW.) However, while he uses his estimates to try to convince you that his price is a good deal, he doesn't seem to let it influence his own pricing.
On eBay, the only recent 10S sale I could find was an instrument that needed some work and sold for $600. The fact that there was alot of risk in the deal (one lousy picture and a seller with no feedback, whatsoever) may have kept the price on the low side. In any case, a good overhaul can easily run $400 these days, so I think your repair tech's asking price is fair but not generous.
That makes the instrument perhaps worth looking at if you are interested in the model but, if I were you, I wouldn't make a decision prior to the overhaul. (If nothing else, he will have a financial interest in doing a superb job.) If he insists that you commit to buy before he performs the overhaul, I recommend you walk away from the deal. When there are alot of fish (or, in your case, is it lobsters?) in the sea, why buy a pig in a poke?
If you already knew from past experience that you specifically wanted a 10S, then I would say this would be worth considering (after all, it's about half of what Howarth's is asking). However, $1,000 for an old model professional instrument that may turn out to be, at best a temporary step-up from your B12, might not be the best use of your money.
Before you buy this one, I think at the very least you should try an R13 (possibly a friend's from one of the bands you play in). That will give you a frame of reference for how the Selmer plays for you - after its overhaul.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2007-06-17 02:09)
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Author: FDF
Date: 2007-06-17 02:22
A lot of excellent advice above. One other thought, try the clarinet for five days, if you like it offer him $750 and tell your former teacher that you can't afford more for a used clarinet. You might even remind him, you could have purchased a new one for $50 more dollars the last time you purchased one from him. Also ask, "What will you give me for a trade-in?"
Good luck.
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Author: fmcat
Date: 2007-06-17 02:22
Tom Ridenour happened to work with the repairtech I speak of. And although he didn't have a high opinion of him, I do believe the article is helpful.
I have no financial commitment to the clarinet, luckily. However, I have sat down and played lots of different clarinets varying between LaBlanc Sonata's, the R13 (a 60's model and a newer greenline), E11, a Rosewood Rossi, and a Selmer 10S he had overhauled.
I did not like the newer R13's he was selling. However, I was interested in the vintage model he had. I have no doubts in the quality of his work, as he has been there consistently for me in the past and is constantly awarded for his excellence as a repair tech. The price he was asking, to me, seemed ridiculous, so I moved on.
I very much liked the Selmer, with a much darker sound than the Buffet. The price seems reasonable. Personally, I see this as quite an improvement from the clarinet I have, and I am looking for an instrument that is "professional". I also tend to like the Selmer as it is well known by jazz clarinetists for its more flexible quality. In addition to playing in symphonic bands and orchestras, I play in a small jazz ensemble.
The Rossi he had me play was previously his, and was obviously well looked after. However, as great as it sounded, looked and felt, it really was in the "dream" category. I don't ever see myself as getting into the profession of playing clarinet, so there is no need to buy a clarinet of this caliber.
The only clarinet I wish I could have tried was a Petricola, but again, is too costly for what I want to do.
Regardless, I really like the 10S, but I am interested in seeing what people have to say about what to look for when play testing it. Should I not like this clarinet, which he promises me I will, as he hand selected the clarinet from a stock, I can choose another.
Buffet B12, ED II Ligature, M13 Mouthpiece, Strength 5 V12 Vandoren
Local 281 - Clarinet Player
Post Edited (2007-06-17 03:11)
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Author: Snowy
Date: 2007-06-26 04:21
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but Jack Kissinger wrote:-
"On eBay, the only recent 10S sale I could find was an instrument that needed some work and sold for $600. The fact that there was alot of risk in the deal (one lousy picture and a seller with no feedback, whatsoever) may have kept the price on the low side. In any case, a good overhaul can easily run $400 these days, so I think your repair tech's asking price is fair but not generous."
I was the person who took the risk on that 10S on the basis that so bad a photo could not have been provided by anyone out to scam (and on the basis of some reassurance by the seller in response to questions.)
The seller is one Andrew Epstein out of Iowa City. I don't think he is a clarinet expert. But I can vouch that he is 120% honest. The instrument needs one pad replacing and is otherwise what they call mint.
Snowy
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-26 19:44
Snowy,
I'm not sure what your point is but it sounds as though you think I was impugning the seller's integrity/honesty. There is nothing in my message to that effect. I said the instrument "needed some work" because the seller's ad said the clarinet "might need a few pads." I said that "there was a lot of risk in the deal (based on the seller's lack of previous feedback and the one lousy picture - and the one picture given was too small and dark to disclose anything about the instrument other than, perhaps, its existence)" because there was little if any information provided to reduce a buyer's perception of risk. I have said in another thread that there is a definite inverse relationship between the degree of risk perceived by buyers on eBay and the price a seller receives. Sellers with strong positive feedback ratings are generally perceived by buyers as less risky than new sellers with no feedback. In the former case, there is some independent evidence from disinterested third parties that the seller has apparently proven relatively trustworthy in the past. (This evidence is not perfect, BTW. Some buyers are too easily satisfied. Some sellers won't give a buyer positive feedback until the buyer has given them positive feedback. Past performance is no guarantee of future performance. But it's better than nothing.)
On the other hand, the lack of any feedback does not imply lack of integrity. The new seller may be just as honest as (indeed, may be more honest than) the seller with 99+% positive feedback on 2,000 transactions. But buyers have no objective basis to make this assessment. Until a seller establishes a good track record, s/he must be viewed as something of a risk. Sellers take their feedback ratings so seriously because they realize that a good feedback rating translates into higher prices. Why? Because buyers believe they are assuming relatively little risk in transactions with them.
To the extent a seller is trusted by potential buyers, s/he can also reduce perceived risk in a transaction by documenting the item for sale and its condition. Clear pictures allow buyers to see for themselves whether the seller (who may or may not be knowledgeable about the item for sale) has identified the correct make and model of an instrument, whether the keys are tarnished, whether pads are worn, whether the clarinet is wood or plastic. (Or, indeed, whether the instrument is what the seller says it is. I once bought an oboe for next to nothing because the seller had it listed as a clarinet. There was a picture that showed it clearly to be an oboe but, because the seller had put "clarinet" in the title, very few people looked at it and no one who searched for "oboe" found it. And, how many alto clarinets have been listed as bass clarinets and vice versa by ignorant sellers?) Clear pictures that show an instrument in good condition are some comfort (if we believe they are of the item listed for sale - a big "if," sometimes) that we'll get what we bid on. An item with no pictures or pictures that are too small/dark to disclose any information about the instrument don't mean, per se, that the instrument is nonexistent or will be the wrong model or in poor condition but they don't provide any positive evidence that it will be as advertised, either. Hence the prudent buyer will recognize that s/he is accepting more risk in buying the item than if there were numerous clear photos.
The whole point of my comment was that I thought the inherent market value of the clarinet you bought was somewhat more than $600 (congratulations!) and that there would probably have been more interest in it and a higher selling price if the seller had been someone with a strong positive feedback rating and/or better pictures. IMO, the reason you got a good deal was because you were willing to take a chance where others weren't. That's probably how most good deals on eBay come about. But be aware, it's also probably how many, if not most, bad deals come about.
So I wasn't impugning the seller's integrity. What would be the point? The sale had already occurred. I was simply indicating why I thought $600 was something less than the instrument's "fair market value" as a basis for evaluating the deal offered the person who started this thread.
BTW, I hope you got seller's permission to disclose his "secret" eBay identity before you made your post. Otherwise, he would be justified in being quite unhappy with you.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2007-06-26 19:46)
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