 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: aspiring clarinetist
Date: 2007-06-09 06:05
Hello, you all seem to be an experienced group of clarinetists. I am in search of a used (to make it reasonably priced) professional-level Yamaha A. I am first wondering if anyone has some good advice as to how to procure one. I am not finding anything on ebay with a reassuring return policy, and my local store rarely gets any used As at all. I really like my Yamaha Bb and would like to find a pro-level A.
Secondly, forgive me if this should be a seperate thread, but I am wondering do you think it's possible to play professionally in the classical realm with only a bachelor of music? I have a bachelors and after taking a rather long break (10 years, I'm afraid) to have a family and figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up, I really do want to be playing again. I have been very pleased with where my skills are currently now that I've been playing consistently and feel that as my children get older and I have more pracitice time that I could play at a competive level if I really begin to work hard again (numerous hours of practice daily). I would be interested in your opinion -- do you think it's possible for someone who took such a long break to practice intensely, take a lessons here and there with reputable clarinetists, and actually someday win a professional audition? I'm very interested in honest opinions (no mockery, please) -- I know the world of professional muscians is extremely competitve. I have numerous friends from undergrad who immediately went on for masters in performance and have won impressive jobs. I know they were not easily come by.
Many thanks to those who take the time to answer this question. It has been on my mind for a good year now and I don't know who to ask. I am just embarassed that I didn't play for so long. I can certainly enjoy playing at a non-professional level, but is it too late for me to be a clarinetist who might win professional auditions?
Sincerely,
AC
- AC
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Author: DougR
Date: 2007-06-09 10:05
Can't help you on the A--keep checking eBay and sooner or later something will turn up, I guess.
As to the meatier part of your post, I don't know that lack of a degree is the slightest problem here. It's all the other stuff you'd be up against: family pressures, time pressures, etc., plus the fact that even a comparatively young student with all the time in the world to practice, play out with others, and begin to establish a professional footprint in the music biz, is still subject to what I'd call the luck of the draw: with the best of intentions, strong will, and plenty of time to practice, some make it and some don't, regardless. Not to say that the journey wouldn't be worth it either way, because you'd be infinitely richer in terms of skill and depth as a musician no matter what, and even if you didn't score a steady A or B level symphonic job, you'd have a gift you'd cherish for the rest of your life.
The question you raise has actually been treated in considerable depth on this site over the years, and I'd suggest you start searching threads for relevant posts, because there's a lot of wisdom in these here archives! Off the top of my head, look for posts by GBK and Terry Stibal, both of whom are regular posters and have written well about how they have navigated the waters you're describing.
Good luck!
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Author: Brianj
Date: 2007-06-09 11:43
Probably don't want to hear this, but...the Army is currently hiring clarinet players. Full time salary, housing allowance, full medical care for you and your family, tuition assistance to continue your education. We are only an audition away. Email me for details.
SSG Brian Jungen
399th Army Band
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-09 12:52
I would think that the biggest hurdle would be the networking side of it. If you can really play, then a 'behind the screen' audition would be no problem.
As far as getting into the 'biz' I suggest that you don't make it public that you hadn't been playing for a while- people hear what they think a lot. If the questions arises and you are in a bind then just say that you never put the clarinet down, but you put performance on the back burner. Getting lessions from teachers in your area will help getting your foot in the door and good feedback about your playing.
A fresh grad degree would be good, too.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-06-09 13:43
Brian,
While aspiring clarinetists should be aware of the many opportunities afforded by the various US Military bands, and they certainly have a rich musical history, I think it's also important to include the full reality of military enlistment when you post a recruitment message to this bulletin board (and elsewhere).
Here's a link to an old article in Stars and Stripes: http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=33249&archive=true
and a clip from the article:
"The Army band unit’s duties do not involve combat, but some of its soldiers will be tasked for patrols within their headquarters camps and convoy protection, Martin-Hing said. Asked what the band would be doing in Iraq, Patton said its members perform a variety of nonmusical duties, such as serving as prison guards."
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-09 13:51
"Secondly, forgive me if this should be a seperate thread, but I am wondering do you think it's possible to play professionally in the classical realm with only a bachelor of music?"
-----------------------------
Some of the best players out there only have their Bachelor's Degree when they get their 1st playing job. The degree won't get you anything, it's the lessons, ensemble playing and really hard work that will do it. However, not having an advanced degree can seriously stop you teaching in a College. They always at least want a Masters and often now a Doctorate. So if you make your "dream job" while in school great, but you probably sound stay there until it happens.
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Author: Brianj
Date: 2007-06-10 12:18
Dear larryb,
When I talk to folks offline about the band, I do indeed mention the fact that they could go to Iraq or Afganistan, it is really hard to say for sure what a band will be doing over there because each division has a different idea of what should happen. We are working on changing this, but I can only say so much in a public forum. Right now the bands are doing all the music they can to keep troop spirits up. This includes concerts, playing at mess halls, and even playing at bus stops where troops are gathered. I will stress to you that I am honest with folks in this regard.
That being said, I will say that I wish music educators on this board and in the real world would be a lot more honest about job prospects about getting a symphony job after they spend years getting degrees to prepare them for the very hard to get, and not always well paying job of a symphonic clarinetist. I have alway seen a lot of "just keep practicing and auditioning and someday you will get a job" kind of advice. Which is great when you are single, but when you have a family, it is a different story.
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Author: Brianj
Date: 2007-06-10 20:08
I meant mostly the teachers in the schools, I know there have been many posts on this board telling people to have a back up plan, the Army was mine and has been pretty good to me for a long time.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-06-10 20:44
Brianj wrote:
> I meant mostly the teachers in the schools,
I am a music educator and am always painfully and blatantly honest with my students and (more importantly) the parents about the reality of music performance as a livelihood...GBK
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Author: Brianj
Date: 2007-06-10 22:27
I am not trying to insult anyone or speak poorly of an entire group, just trying to address a problem I see. My wife was a vocal performance major, and at no point during her time in college did anyone say anything about what awaited her in the real world. Advice to her was always just keep getting degrees and see what happens. GBK, I know you are honest and upfront and if I offended, I apologize. Unfortunately, I think we all know someone who has suffered bad advice and I think the issue needs to be dealt with more in the music industry.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-11 06:06
during my very recient time in college- the subject of employment was not talked about at all except when it came to becoming a teacher in schools or universities. making money as a performer was part of no conversation I can remember.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-06-12 19:30
That's probably because even many symphony seats are not full-time jobs, and many college instructors may not even have a part-time seat.
Although I'm a local yokel, I think that most heavy hitters here will back me up on this: You CAN make money playing clarinet, although it's unlikely for most folks as a full-time profession. You might even make money with only a 'classical' background but this will probably involve much more pedestrian venues than you dream of.
There are pit orchestras, German bands, Klezmer bands, dixieland, etc., but some will require you to double other instruments and others may require you to make up your own part on the spot. AND...you won't get these kinds of jobs just because you're an out-of-work orchestral musician. You will have to embrace these jobs musicially, work them with enthusiasm, and acquire any extra knowledge, skills, or instruments that they require of you.
Playing for money (and on clarinet in particular) can be a virtual orgy of playing corny tunes while wearing funny hats. I am headed out the door right now to play with a Western/Cowboy group. I'm going to have a ton of fun being Benny Goodman in a cowboy hat for a couple of hours--and get a chance to blow my A clarinet a little bit while the guitar players enjoy their open strings.
Still not a living, but a lot of fun if you keep an open mind...
Allen Cole
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2007-06-12 19:52
Let's also take more time to define "professional." Most professional players I know (of EVERY instrument) patch together their livings playing in chamber groups, pit orchestras, teaching, and performing in very respectable local orchestras. They're all excellent players, but the reality of being a professional musician is that it's a tough life and always has been. Love it so much that you feel you can't possibly do anything else, or leave it.
Having said that, I should point out that there are also many excellent amateurs around who find joy playing together, creating music societies, and performing for local audiences. Some of these amateur groups have become quite well known and respected. they love music no less than the pros; they just find other ways to feed their families and their passion for music.
"If you want to do something, you do it, and handle the obstacles as they come." --Benny Goodman
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-06-12 20:33
Dear Aspiring Clarinetist,
I find your post very interesting and will try to answer it the best I can. In fact, I can relate to your predicament somewhat. I spent a good part of my early adult life in a completely different field and waited until I was 30 to go back to school and earn a Bachelor of Music and then immediately a Master of Music. I, too, took some time away from the clarinet. I didn't actually put the horn down completely, but my playing was limited to a couple of hours a week in a practice room for a year or two after my first undergraduate degree and while starting my first masters (which I never finished). During that never-ending degree, I found an inspiring and good teacher at my university and it took a year or so of lessons and ensemble playing to get back in good shape and then start improving again. I had missed playing so much that I was quickly hooked on it once I got back in decent condition. I began playing in community orchestras, taking auditions, and I won the concerto contest at my university. Eventually I dropped that other degree for a job in the field, continuing to play clarinet every spare moment in various ensembles. Then I got laid off and I was at a crossroads in my life. I moved hundreds of miles away to where my then-boyfriend and current husband of 4 years lived. He encouraged me to go back to school for what I really wanted, which was music. So, I did, we got married, and now I teach private students and do some freelancing. It's not a great living yet, but I'm doing what I really want to do and we have plenty for life's essentials. I am also taking orchestral and military auditions as they come up. I will say it is very competitive out there, and it is definitely advisable to get the most excellent teacher you can, especially since it has been so long for you. If you really love to do it, and you work hard, I see no reason why you can't make some living at least by freelancing and teaching. Professional auditions are very competitive, but only you and your newfound teacher will be able to determine if they are out of your realm. I'd say just try to learn all the orchestra excerpts that you can and play them all for a teacher who understands your goals. (A good recording device can really help keep you on track, as well!) You can browse the auditions at musicalchairs.info or the International Musician, if you can find a library that gets it and see what excerpts come up most. Peter Hadcock's book The Working Clarinetist is an excellent resource for the auditioning clarinetist.
For myself, I am sometimes dismayed at how many really talented young people show up at these auditions. But, I try to be inspired rather than intimidated by that, and learn something each time. I did make the final 4 in an orchestra and a military band audition last year. The orchestra was kind of low-profile (and low pay!) but it still increased my confidence a lot.
Now, about the A clarinet. It seems it is really difficult to come by an excellent used one. If you're serious about auditions, I really think it would be to your advantage to try out many new ones to find an excellent one. After all, the Mozart Concerto in A is usually the first thing the judges will ask of you at any professional audition.
I guess that's about all I have to say for now. Good luck, and feel free to email me if you have any more questions.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-06-13 00:36
Used A clarinets are pretty scarce. You'll almost never see a good professional one in a local store unless you are in a large metropolitan area and the store has a large clarinet/woodwind section. They are also rare on eBay but they do turn up regularly. You can find a good instrument at a good price but you have to be patient. I think clarinets are like health care, when it comes to high quality, fast acquisition, and low price, you can have any two of the three.
Good news: IMO, of the "big 4," relatively new (< 20 years old) professional clarinets, Yamahas are the best bargain on eBay. A decent, but I think very attainable, price for a used Yamaha A in good condition is $600 - $800. Personally, I would not pay more.
Bad news: To achieve that price, you have to be patient, determined and disciplined. You have to be willing to wait for a good instrument at your price. You have to check the auction frequently because you're not the only one looking for a bargain and you want to be at the head of the line if one presents itself. (e.g., Recently a Yamaha 85II A clarinet with gold plated keys sold for $600. It was "buy-it-now" and IMO would have brought at least a bit more in a regular auction. I couldn't tell how long it was actually available but I suspect it sold the first day, possibly within a few hours of its opening.) You can also put yourself on a notification list so that eBay lets you know if an item you're looking for comes up. Finally, you should decide on the maximum you are willing to pay and "walk away" from an auction if the bidding goes above that amount. There will be other opportunities.
More bad news: In used clarinets, there is always a trade-off between price and risk. If you aren't willing to accept some risk, expect to pay a premium price. If you aren't comfortable buying without an unconditional return guarantee, you might as well look at new instruments now, or at least, only buy from a dealer. The best source of a good used instrument at a low price is someone who needs money fast. This person is willing to accept a lower price, sometimes far below market value, if s/he knows the sale is final. If this person allows any return, it will only be for a major discrepancy in the listing - but not if you simply don't like the intonation on a few notes or if you need to replace a pad or two. This person does not want to have to go through the hassle of re-listing the instrument. You may have to settle for less than the perfect instrument you will likely find if you try 20 or 30 new ones at Weiner Music but you can get a decent instrument, often a very good one, at less than half the price of a new one.
But a word of caution is needed here. More often than not, if something appears too good to be true, there's a very good chance it isn't true. To get a good price, you will usually have to assume some risk but you don't have to be foolhardy. If you have doubts about an item's legitimacy, walk away. There will be other opportunities. Check out the seller's feedback and other items for sale. If the feedback is not exemplary or the seller has a wide variety of "give-aways" but little feedback, walk away. There will be other opportunities.)
Good news: Because owners often use their A clarinets far less than their Bb's, many (most) A clarinets that come up on eBay are actually in pretty good condition if they're under 20 years old. A particularly good source of even newer instruments, at this time of year, is college students who have recently graduated (with debt), who purchased an A for school, didn't actually use it much, and now want to sell it because they are going to direct a junior high band and don't see much further need for an A. (But avoid the seller who paid full list price for the instrument two years ago and thinks $200 is a sufficient discount. Don't even waste your time arguing with them.)
More good news: Even without a guarantee, if you buy a good clarinet at a good price but decide you don't want to keep it, you can probably turn around and sell it to someone else on eBay for close to what you paid (particularly if there were a number of different bidders on the original auction.) You'll be out some time and maybe a few bucks but you can look on this as the cost of trying an instrument out.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-06-14 16:27
That's a pretty nice treatise on dealing with Ebay, Jack.
I would add one thing. Make note of the seller's username. I had a pretty successful purchase of a bass clarinet which was being sold by someone whose name I recongnized from various sax and clarinet message boards. Dealing long distance, and with no face-to-face, it was a great comfort to know that I was dealing with someone whose knowledge and attitudes I'd already gotten get a glimpse of.
Allen Cole
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2007-06-14 18:17
Worst comes to worst, save up a bit, pinch some pennies, and buy yourself a new A clarinet (best if you can try a few to pick the best). Sure it's expensive, but put in perspective with what other instruments cost brand new and what that other guy's paying for a professional level instrument, it doesn't seem so bad.
I ended up maxing out my credit card two years ago AS WELL AS selling off some household items to afford my current set of clarinets. I still made my payments and now (two years later) I'm way ahead of the game financially and have paid those clarinets off and saved up money, but it was a deal I really couldn't pass up at the time. And I haven't seen a similar deal out there yet (haven't looked hard I know, but I check these classifieds here on this bulletin board pretty regularly and I've only seen about two other REALLY great deals like the one I took). And I would do it again if I had to.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2007-06-14 19:33
Concerning A clarinets: a couple of years ago I tried a bunch
of Yamaha A's ( SEV's and CSG's) while looking for an A for my daughter.
We settled on a CSG, the best A I'd played to date. But the Ridenour
Lyrique I bought a few months ago significantly outplays that CSG.
So you might be able to find a good used Yamaha A after a lot of looking.
Or you could get order a very likely better instrument tomorrow from Ridenour.
(By the way, Tom does allow for a trial period.)
D.O.
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Author: bulldoggy1
Date: 2007-07-15 22:01
Ditto. I have a Bb Arioso clarinet which Mr. Ridenour sold prior to his current Lyrique line. The Arioso is a lovely playing instrument. If this instrument is any comparison, I would highly recommend Mr. Ridenour's Lyrique A clarinet (which costs far less than the well known line.)
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Author: sherman
Date: 2007-07-16 14:43
I think the choice of which A clarinet to buy is the least of your worries. The question I would like to answer is that of training. You need no degree from anywhere to play the clarinet professionally, one only need to be able to play and win the audition for the job. As you have said the busines is extremely competitive. The orchestra business is fading out even more quickly, some folding or failing each week. The New York Times had an interesting editorial concerning this aspect of classical music by Edward Kozinan a few weeks ago.
The reasons for this are manifold; they are not just the many many clarinetists. We have developed to the point of competing with ourselves by creating perfect recordings, with electroncally enhanced solo passages,
so much so, that the sound of a commercial recording is far superior to that of the performance in person.
In addition there are many of us aho are creating samples of our playing for synthesizers. The sounds are then juxtaposed in various ways and that creates further competition.
This competition is unbeatable and in order to beat it and get a job, you have to play very well, even better than that. There are many universities where that cannot happen. A teacher cannot give you that special something.
Instead, what frequently happens as you have said is the further march up the degree ladder, a Masters, than the DMA or similar. Does one improve with the degree?
That job that was open a while ago, the Tuscon Symphony. That would be a place to start. I don't mean to sound in any way depressing, merely realistic.
Nadia Boulanger told many of her students this in the manner of a question.
"Would you just as soon die if you could not play your instrument? " If the answer was yes, she would say ,"then you may, you must go on".
Good luck with your A clarinet, and you career, wherever it leads you.
Sherman Friedland
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Author: jmcgann
Date: 2007-07-16 21:18
Please remember-there are more avenues to a performance career than the pursuit of classical music. If you love all kinds of music and can play a variety of it well, you will not starve.
Music careers are about much more than pedigree. Most (if not all) performance jobs, in various idioms, are acquired because of competency, not because of how many of what kind of degree you hold, or where you trained.
www.johnmcgann.com
Post Edited (2007-07-16 21:23)
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Author: C2thew
Date: 2007-07-17 05:20
Very nice comments and good feedback. I've talked to a pro musician friend of mine and he tells me that in the performing world, he rarely uses his A at all. When it comes down to using an A clarinet, it's usually for church groups or chamber groups that require a more intimate setting. other than that, that's it.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. they are but improved means to an unimproved end, an end which was already but too easy to arrive as railroads lead to Boston to New York
-Walden; Henry Thoreau
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-07-17 05:26
C2thew wrote:
> I've talked to a pro
> musician friend of mine and he tells me that in the performing
> world, he rarely uses his A at all.
He obviously doesn't play in an orchestra...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2007-07-17 12:32
On the other hand, for most high-school and college students an A clarinet is probably a luxury, not a necessity. And the A acquired (sometimes for a couple thousand dollars) for a few performances with the college orchestra (where transposition or a borrowed horn or a shoelace would have sufficed) or a recital (where a substitute work would have been fine) frequently winds up in a closet or on eBay (where it sells at a significant loss) after graduation, when the former student becomes a band director or a computer programmer with college loans to pay and not enough (any) orchestra/recital work to keep it in use.
Of course, it's better to be able to shop for an A clarinet (or any other musical instrument) at leisure, rather than having to buy one on short notice if an orchestra gig presents itself.
And if resources aren't limited? Well, toys are toys and GAS is a powerful force.
Best regards,
jnk
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