 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-06-13 01:44
Last night I had the wonderful opportunity to go to a sort of "prototype" seminar at Methodist University here in Fayetteville, NC. The director of bands, Dr. Larry Wells, made a presentation on the justifications of intonation. He is basically preparing this presentation of the Music Educators Conference sometime in the future. I forgot to bring a notebook but luckily I had a pencil in my case and he had handouts on scales, chords, and the intonation differences so I had some notes. Dr. Wells noticed the difference between playing pretty good and really good is intonation.
Tuners
Electronic Tuners, and any tuner for that matter that does not happen to be a Strobe tuner, often misread pitch and only tune notes with them self.
Timbre
Lower pitched instruments which have a broad, deep, dark tone tend to register flatter on the tuner than what they are in reality because the tuners pick up timbre.
Instruments with a brighter, higher pitched sound like flutes, piccolos, and clarinets tend to register sharper because of this.
Volume
Volume plays a key role in tuning as well. Tuners register higher volumes flatter and softer volumes sharper. The human ear also does the same thing. Most bands drive the pitch up through performances, strings too especially, due to pitch perception of the human ear. Trumpets are often perceived to the human ear as flat because of their loud brassy sound. Clarinets on the other hand along with flutes and piccolos especially have a bright soft sound that makes the human ear perceive that they are flat.
Why?
Back in the baroque eras and such, Just Tuning was used, as opposed to Equal Temperament. Later on, everything was changed to Equal Temperament because it allowed for music to be played in all keys, not some keys like Just Tuning, explaining why music in Baroque era isn't found in certain keys. Equal Temperament ascends in increments of 100cents. Those few of us with Perfect pitch can quickly pick out the intonation flaws on a piano tuned equally.
Here is a little basic chart on Just Tuning and Equal Temperament. Just tuning is the 1st cents figure, equal the 2nd.
Unison----No correction 0cts 0cts
m2------ Widen by 5 cents (+5 cents) 105cts 100cts
M2------Narrow by 4 cents (-4 cents) 204cts 200cts
m3------Widen by 16 cents (+16 cents) 316cts 300cts
M3------Narrow by 14 cents (-14 cents) 386cts 400cts
P4------ Narrow by 2 cents (-2 cents) 498cts 500cts
Aug4----Widen by 15 cents (+15 cents) 515cts 600cts
dim5-----Narrow by 17 cents (-17 cents) 583cts 600cts
P5------Widen by 2 cents (+2 cents) 702cts 700cts
m6-----Widen by 14 cents (+14 cents) 814cts 800cts
M6-----Narrow by 16 cents (-16 cents) 884cts 900cts
m7*-----Narrow by 31 cents (-31 cents) 969cts 1000cts
M7-----Narrow by 12 cents (-12 cents) 1088cts 1100cts
Octave-----No Correction 1200cts 1200cts
*When found in major/minor 7th chords*
Which ones have the biggest effect on tuning
M2 are such close intervals that rarely can the human ear tell the difference between which note is out of tune. The perfect notes on which to tell are out of tune are M3 and M6. Notice closely how the m7 has to be dropped 31 cents to be played correctly in tune.
How to tune
When Tuning notes, the ideal notes to tune on would be the P4/P5. Those intervals require minimal adjustment to be played in tune therefore making them ideal intervals to utilize when tuning two instruments together. It should also be avoided to tune to an electronic source. The sounds are not filled with enough overtones for the ear to "grab" the pitch. Tuning should be done to play the root note of the chord/key with an electronic tuner and then the ear should do the rest.
How it affects sound
Playing correctly in tune can also lead to an increased production of sound. Dr. Wells demonstrated with a young student how playing out of tune and playing in tune affect your sound as a group. He told a story about how when he was in his sophomore year of college, he taught the brass line at his high school this and by the fall they were winning "Best Brass Line" at marching competitions. Intonation makes a small 35 member band sound like it is double or triple the size of what it really is.
I know this may be alot to absorb at once, I know it is for me as I still have not finished high school but I got a headstart on what I need to know. If there's anything you need to ask, feel free to contact me. I am also aware the Clark Fobes has a small section in one of his articles about this but it didn't really go into detail as Dr. Wells did last night. I walked in thinking I knew what he was gonna say, but left wondering how could this be so hidden.
Post Edited (2007-06-13 04:22)
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2007-06-13 04:00
To SVC:
You confused cents with hz.
Cents is for measuring a relative interval.
Ex: 100 cents is semitone interval wherever it happens.
Hz is number of vibrations per second.
Ex: 100 hz means different intervals depending on what pitch you're
talking about.
On your chart,the last column doesn't mean anything.
And cents should be used instead of hz.
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-06-13 04:20
Koo Young Chung,
You are right. Looking at the sheet that clearly came out of some book, the author made an error by replacing cents with Hz. I will immediately change that. As for the last column, it is Just tuning compared to Equal temperament.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-13 04:23
WRT the claim:
"Timbre
Lower pitched instruments which have a broad, deep, dark tone tend to register flatter on the tuner than what they are in reality because the tuners pick up timbre.
Instruments with a brighter, higher pitched sound like flutes, piccolos, and clarinets tend to register sharper because of this."
I've never seen any evidence of this, however, I've heard a lot of flute players who play sharp :-).
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-13 11:25
"I've heard a lot of flute players who play sharp :-)"
You're not alone - and more often than not they don't realise it, and won't accept the fact they are playing sharp!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-06-13 13:15
A tired, inexperienced windblower will play flat, and will play flatter as they go louder and higher.
A tired, inexperienced brass player will play sharp, and will play sharper as they go louder and higher!
This is a recipe for... well, 'caution' at the very least. :-)
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Author: William
Date: 2007-06-13 14:15
"Electronic tuners are fine and dandy, but it is much more important to PLAY in tune than BE in tune" (my Retro Swing Band lead alto friend Bruce W)
But Dr. Wells does make a lot of ''cents".
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-14 00:49
That's why you can't tune a piano to an inexpensive hand held tuner. They aren't sensitive enough.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2007-06-14 14:28
The tuning thing can be very frustrating. You tune to A=440 in a pit. Within seconds of the overture the trumpets are playing sharp. The flute and oboe happily go with them as does the doubler next to you playing Clarinet with a short barrel. The strings go with them. Suddenly a keyboard solo starts sounding flat and depressing. The trumpet plays a loud series of notes over the top all sharp, but thats ok the loudest instrument is always correct. I then pick up a cold saxophone thats been lying dormant. I come in sounding flat and depressing.
Why tune? Perhaps we should tune at a higher pitch to accomadate the Brass? Why do trumpets not care about intonation?
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-14 14:56
I usually play the tuning note at 442-443Hz if it's a particularly hot day, and 437-438Hz if it's on the cold side. That way, rather than pushing or pulling slides or whatnot in or out, the band can pretty much stay in tune while playing without much need for adjustment as we'll all warm up relatively uniformly.
But it does all go to pot when a keyboard is involved as trying to get up to or stay down at 440 is hard work in cold or hot weather.
In orchestral, big band or pit work in the concert setting, it has to be 440Hz no matter what - and as Chris says above, that is frustrating when certain players have their own ideas of pitch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: William
Date: 2007-06-14 15:25
And then there is the problem of the "I can't find the pitch" singers on stage. I mean, sometimes, why bother tuning in the first place? LOL
BTW--in support of my earlier posting, a few years ago, during a clinic demo at Door County's (WI) Birch Creek Music Center, a freelance violinist from Chicago, who frequently subbed with the CSO, made an interesting statement. She causually mentioned to one of the kids that when she played with that great orchestra, they seldom officially tuned. Instead, they would "just play in tune". Her instrument was a Stradivarius, which she played mavelously as concertmaster and soloist with the Academy Orchestra (myself as principal clar). Nevertheless, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra "never tunes, they just play in tune"--interesting.............
Post Edited (2007-06-14 19:25)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-14 16:30
I must admit I do that - I don't do the 'tuning up' thing (which most players only do to the one given note, rather than the other chord tones up and down the instrument - D minor if it's a concert A, or Bb Major if it's a concert Bb given), but play in tune.
If I'm on flute, oboe or clarinet I'll adjust to the other instruments playing at the same pitch - if it's alto sax or low register clarinet I'd again tune to the other instruments at this pitch. On bass clarinet, tenor and bari saxes I tune with the trombones and low brass. But again this has it's problems - if the upper woodwinds go sharp with the trumpets and the lower winds stick with the low brass, then if you're in the middle (alto or tenor sax) then you have to take your pick of who you're in tune with at any given time.
The average trumpet players octaves widen as they go up, same with flutes and other soprano winds. If anything, the pitch should almost SOUND as if it's going flat when going up, but when put to the test (a tuner) it's most likely staying in tune. If you play oboe you will hear this phenomenon - play low D, then middle D, then top D - to an untrained ear they may think the top D is flat in comparison, but it's in tune to any oboist worth their salt. Play the top D sharp (by about a quarter tone) and they'll say it's in tune - look at a tuner and this will say it's sharp.
I know a lot of average sax players that lip up when playing up top, sending their saxes sharp (and also tune to the sharper upper register note sending the lower register flat), and then turn round and tell me my tuner needs recalibrating. it's a case of understanding the instrument you're playing, and how to play it in tune, and without a certain level of understanding they descend into arguements usually starting with 'I've been playing for X amount of years' ... Yeah, well how about playing in tune for once in your life?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rgames
Date: 2007-06-14 23:47
I've never understood this discussion among wind/string players: the "Just vs. Equal" argument really only applies to pitched percussive instruments and organs.
If you're a wind/string player, you always strive for whatever intonation makes the current harmonic structure sound "in tune". If I'm playing a duet and I have a G above a C in the other player, I'm going to try to tune it for just (i.e. perfect) intonation.
However, if that same G is a minor third above an E, or a major third above Eb, or somewhere in a 9 chord, I'll tune it differently for each case by lipping it up or down. All of those tunings are different but none uses equal temperament. It is an issue for pianos, harps, organs, etc. because they can't dynamically change the pitch.
So here's some advice: if you can lip it up or down, don't worry about just or equal temperament. Just play in tune. Working with an equal-temperament tuner will help you understand the general tendencies of your instrument but it is by no means an absolute.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-06-15 01:09
rgames wrote:
> I've never understood this discussion among wind/string
> players: the "Just vs. Equal" argument really only applies to
> pitched percussive instruments and organs.
I'm in complete agreement with you.
I also find it equally ridiculous when Band Directors spend 10 minutes tuning the band to one note before a concert. I have to wonder if some of the "equal temperment" argument stems from years of this tuning practice in ensemble. Less time is spent learning HOW to play in tune compared with tuning one note.
I also find most private teachers - even at the college level, hardly talk about the difficulties tuning with piano.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-06-15 02:23
Also take into account that clarinets tend to go flat when played loudly and sharp when played softly, the opposite of many other instruments.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-06-15 10:47
> Why do trumpets not care about intonation?
I'm coming to the conculsion that it's best not to follow them up in pitch. It only encourages them. ;-D
I think often inexperienced brass players don't realise they're playing sharp. Come in on pitch and it wakes them up.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-06-15 11:52
Sometimes I think it would be a good idea for a band director to go back to the future: Buy two good tuning forks, one with orchestra concert A and the other with band concert C, keep the forks in the pocket most of the time and teach the kids to listen.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-06-15 15:44
You can use tuning forks until you're blue in the face, but if the ensemble doesn't know how to actively tune to each other while playing, it won't do a bit of good.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-15 19:39
Yeah, you can't get through to some players that disregard tuning while playing as they're set on the assumption that when they tuned up to the given tuning note (the ONE note), they're in tune and will always be in tune as they tuned to the one note - they need to learn to LISTEN to the other players and adjust accordingly (as I'm sure some of the other players may be consciously making tuning adjustments). There's a lot of them out there, and there's usually very little reasoning with them - and they're usually the least musical players that have walked the earth but have connections that get them where they shouldn't be.
That's my rant over and done with.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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