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Author: WinnieS
Date: 2007-06-09 06:39
Hello,
I am new to clarinet playing, I had three practice sessions with myself so far. I am an adult who tries to teach myself from the start. I managed to get first notes pretty fast but then I noticed that I get squeaks with a variable degree of success. I read numerous Internet forums and articles and two books on clarinet playing by Keith Stein and David Pino and still can’t figure out the nature of these squeaks
I can get the ‘open’ G 98% of the time right but when I start fingering the tone holes I very often get squeaks. I try to finger then as accurately as I can to seal the tone holes tightly with my fingers but I think that doesn’t help me much because sometimes I manage to get all notes in a raw sounding right without any excessive pressure, just barely and lightly touching the holes.
I try to control my embouchure so that I don’t bite and my mouthpiece doesn’t go very far in but still that doesn’t seem to help me much when I start squeaking.
I also noticed that between a squeak and a correct tone there is just a hair of difference. When I start squeaking on a note I can adjust something imperceptible in my embouchure and finger placement or in both and then the squeak transitions to normal tone. But that doesn’t look like making any noticeable changes to my embouchure or something else. The right tone sometimes just pops up from squeak with a slight flop as I perceive it.
I rotate 4 reeds per a session. Playing condition of my clarinet was checked by a professional clarinetist with a 12 years playing experience and he said it was good enough. It is new Trevor James series 5 hard rubber clarinet. I use a new Vandoren 5RV mouthpiece and Vandoren 2.5 reeds.
I wonder: is proper clarinet sound production really such a subtle thing that transition from a squeak to normal tone and back takes so little adjustments so it is virtually impossible to notice what causes this transition?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-09 08:30
Winnie,
does it squeak only when you attack the notes, or does it squeak too when you slur from open G down to E or F?
Slurring should be easier and you won't squeak even if your fingers aren't covering the holes perfectly at all times. In my early days I noticed that my finger placement changed when I tried to reach the pinky keys, and it took me about a month or two to get my hands accustomed to their new job.
Likewise, some mouthpiece/reed combinations are less forgiving than others. What are you using?
I strongly suggest finding a teacher or a seasoned player willing to show you around, if only for a month or two. It's easy to teach yourself some wrong behaviour, and it's difficult to unlearn them later. It's money well spent.
Anyhow - welcome to the club!
--
Ben
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Author: WinnieS
Date: 2007-06-09 10:27
Ben,
It's a shame but I am at a stage I cannot yet think of tongueing or slurring. What I do now is trying to produce long tones one at a time: I take a deep low breath and start a note, I start from open G as it is the best one I can produce which is no wonder. I blow until I run out of breath and then start the new lower note after full inhallation.
I understand getting correct intonation and tone are important things from the very beginning and from various sources I know long tones is a basic exercise to achive good sound. I also understand I maybe doing this wrong but I first want to make sure I get good note most of the time rather then squeaks.
I am actually thinking of taking some lessons soon.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-09 13:32
"I wonder: is proper clarinet sound production really such a subtle thing that transition from a squeak to normal tone and back takes so little adjustments so it is virtually impossible to notice what causes this transition?"
I think that is quite possible for a beginner.
"I also noticed that between a squeak and a correct tone there is just a hair of difference. "
I think that with experience, that hair becomes a log. A matter of perception.
BTW, are you tonguing the beginning of the note? A squeek may be a lot more likely if you don't.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-06-09 14:13
Yeah, what Gordon said.
My very first thought, given Winne's intelligent and articulate description of her experience while playing, is that this has something to do with air use.
Winne, try this: make your embouchure and put the clarinet in your mouth; now, take a nice breath in through your nose, but hold back the air with your embouchure -- don't blow yet. While you are holding back the air (this all happens quickly, and will become automatic), put the tip of your tongue on the tip of the mouthpiece, touching the reed. Start to release the air, and at the very same time, remove your tongue from the mouthpiece/reed. Note that your embouchure "stays put", acting as a seal around the mouthpiece tip.
Do this over and over and over on one breath until it feels a little more "natural". Congratulations! You haved learned to tongue. Try it on open G, and on F, A, and then E, and other notes that require more fingers as you are ready. Then try doing it as you move from note to note.
You'll be up to "Merrily We Roll Along" in no time at all!
Best wishes,
Susan
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-06-09 14:32
WinnieS,
Squeaks can have many causes. A non-exhaustive list is below, in no particular order. You can probably eliminate some causes easily (e.g., your instrument has been judged to be in good working order) and reduce the list to diagnose your cause.
If you don't have a good teacher, it would be good for your learning to find one before you start adopting bad habits that become difficult to un-learn later.
Regards,
Hans
Causes of Squeaks
- a dry reed
- overblowing
- accidentally touching a key
- the middle joint in a clarinet is not properly aligned
- using a "wrong" fingering instead of a better alternate
- a finger not covering a hole
- a pad not seating properly
- a weak spring not holding a key closed
- keys out of adjustment (e.g., the A key)
- unco-ordinated fingering
- a leaking joint
- a cracked instrument (in a wood clarinet)
- too much mouthpiece in the mouth
- a burr on the mouthpiece top rail
- misapplied lip pressure
- a reed is split
- the reed is not perfectly sealed on the mouthpiece
- a reed is too thin at the center of the tip or is stiffer on one side than the other
- a poorly designed, worn, or warped mouthpiece (a warped mouthpiece can be refaced)
- the mouthpiece baffle (the slanted top inside the tip) is too high
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2007-06-09 16:41
Hans mentioned a dry reed. I squeak when I have a dry mouth! So I keep a water bottle handy.
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-06-09 22:42
Winnie,
Since you just started, you may want to try a softer reed until you develop some embouchure, maybe the first month or so if you're practicing regularly. Then, try the 2.5s again. I'm going to reiterate what others have said, and say get a teacher sooner than later. I can't stress that enough.
Best wishes.
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Author: D
Date: 2007-06-11 21:20
You said something about the mouthpiece not going far in. An easy way to find the correct place to put it is:
Look sideways on at the mouthpiece, perhaps with a light or a black sheet on the other side. You should be able to see where the reed and the mouthpiece meet and where they are separate. The place where this change occurs is where you need to be exerting pressure from your lower lip. You might find it helpful to draw this on a reed with a pencil and then get a friend to watch where the line goes when you start to play.
Try playing a little on just the mouthpiece at the start of each session. This helps you concentrate on just that and not have to worry that you are not covering the holes correctly.
You haven't mentioned your age other than adult. Please do not be offended by this, but if your hands are slightly stiff it will take a while to get them used to being in the correct place. I know several players who simply couldn't achieve quite the right hand position and had to have their banana keys or similar slightly bent to allow them to play without frequently knocking them. These were all adult starters. There is no shame in admitting a physical limitation. Sometimes it can be overcome by a good hand position. but sometimes an adjustment of half a mil can make all the difference.
The most important thing is to have fun with it. Forget about squeaking, just play!
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2007-06-13 05:39
Students of mine who have had squeaking problems have had them for three main reasons:
- Too much mouthpiece in the mouth
- Angle of the clarinet not close enough to the body
- Insufficient tension at the sides of the embouchure (usually seen when students puff out their cheeks, even slightly).
There are other reasons, of course, but these are the ones I see the most, and the simplest to explain, the least arcane, and the easiest to correct.
Bruce M.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-13 14:28
You really need a teacher or at least an clarinet playing friend to play your setup to determine what the cause is. And, I'm not convinced a softer reed will remove the problem.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-13 14:47
Do a Google on "Squeak Terminator"....
Bob Draznik
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Author: WinnieS
Date: 2007-06-14 05:38
Please read my next post, this one was premature...
Post Edited (2007-06-14 06:28)
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Author: WinnieS
Date: 2007-06-14 06:19
Thank you all for your input so far.
I am actually trying to implement ALL your helpful advice in my practice sessions.
There was a good advice from D about forgetting the squeeks and playing and I accepted that. It was interesting to listen to these high harmonics instead of worrying and calling them 'squeaks' and stopping when they occured. I just kept blowing and went on to the next high note pretending that nothing unexpected happened.
I also tried to shorten my notes and slurred from note to note instead of starting each new note with a new breath.
These two things helped me to understand my problem better and here is what I found: If I start on open G right and go down to C on one breath I can manage to reach C and come back up to G without squeaks.
Yes, Ben, you are right in this case the accuracy of fingering is quite forgiving. I don't pay much attention to it and it works fine as it is even if I feel that I nearly fail to cover the holes correctly.
However, when I play a few slurred notes correctly, say G -> F -> E and then take air to start D I most likely will start it with a squeak!
I then continue to play long tones down to C and try to find what caused that squeak.
I tried two things: adjusting my embouchure and taking less mouthpiece while playing the long squeaking tones. At some point removing the mouthpiece from the mouth helped but that was not the thing I expected: my upper teeth were nearly 1/10 of an inch from the mouthpiece edge when the squeak stopped and the normal tone appeared. I then could take in 2/10" more and the squeak didn't reappear. There seems to be some hysteresis. Nonetheless I suspect that I could just change my embouchure and not having enough experience failed to return it to the state before taking air.
Anyway something changes when I make this break while taking more air.
By the way I have a related question: Why isn't clarinet playing done with nose breathing but with breathing through the corners of the mouth? In first case there would be no change in embouchure. Well, at least for me at this stage.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-14 10:10
Wow Winnie, are you really in Russia? I breathe through my nose as well as my mouth.
Bob Draznik
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Author: WinnieS
Date: 2007-06-15 12:18
Bob, it's interesting news: I read many times about unlearning this 'bad habit'. Do you mean you take abdominal air for clarinet sound production through your nose or just breathing to supply your body with the oxygen?
If it is the former how do you decide which method to use when?
And again, I'd like to emphasize this: isn't that considered a bad habit? Is this method of breathing accepted by majority of the clarinet players or just by few individuals?
Russia, Russia... where is that?
Just kidding; Yes.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-06-15 12:26
Er...I breathe through my nose too. I even breathe out through my nose when I have no time to rearrange my embouchure.
Besides, the nose acts as an air filter...
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-06-15 12:48
For inhaling for clarinet playing, I use the sides of my mouth (without affecting embouchure, which is really the centre region of the lips) and my nose.
Of course not much air goes in via my nose, compared with my mouth, because there are more constrictive passages via that route, with more friction for the air.
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Author: hans
Date: 2007-06-15 13:49
Inhaling through the corners of my mouth works best for me.
Hans
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-15 14:39
"unlearning this 'bad habit"
To tell the truth I haven't given a thought about nose vs mouth breathing. I'd have to have someone watch me to know what I do.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Clive
Date: 2007-06-17 10:17
Hi Winnie
I just saw your posts. I've been where you are, and to some extent still am!
At first I thought that my squeaks were due to poor embouchure, which surprised me, as I have good lungs and lips. Furthermore I could just not get my front teeth onto the mouthpiece, and used double lip embouchure, largely frowned upon by teachers, but OK I believe. One day I managed to get my front teeth onto the mps, and now cannot understand why I could not do so previously!
I now believe that my squeaks are almost always due to poor fingering, particularly difficult for the low B,A and G notes. I am a mature student, and have a medical condition which means my right hand fingers are poorly co-ordinated. One thing I learned, which apparently most clarinettists know, is that the ring fingers are by far the weakest of them all, and when moving other fingers, the ring finger tends to become somewhat dislodged.
At first, while I could play a scale down to low G, I just couldn't hit it first time, or go say direectly from C to G. Now after considerable practice I find I am much improved. In answer to your question: yes the margin between perfect intonation and a squeak can be very small in my experience. At first I simply could not blow a 2.5 strength reed, and the extra air I was trying to blow was making things worse. Reverting to a 1.5 strength reed was very beneficial, but now blowing a Van Doren 2.5 is no problem.
The other aspect which may be problematic is psychological I beleive. As a mature student one is much less tolerant of error, and the fear of failure is always in one's mind, which compounds the difficulties. Perhaps I didn't have the right teacher ( much younger then me): he is a brilliant player, but is used to teaching much younger students who apparently have much more suppleness in their young fingers, and couldn't really understand or therefore explain my difficulties. Therefore I have taken a "tuition sabbatical" while I work hard at my own technique, which is improving, albeit too slowly for my own liking. This also lessens the pressures which although one might feel is not a problem for a mature student, I think really can be because playing the clarinet is something quite outside my experience. If learning involves the brain, I am comfortable, and am intellectually equal to any teacher, even though I might be a novice. When it comes to a mechagnical skill like playing the horn, I am in uncharted territory, and am nervous as a kitten.
I can only subscribe to most everything that others have said, some of which may be more relevant than others, but I think the most important thing for you will come from within. What I mean is that, you should have faith that what you are attempting is not rocket science, and that you will be able to achieve reasonable competence given time and practice. Perhaps you will never be an Emma Johnson, but remember she started at age 3 and is now thirty something, and has had a head start; however you can be as good as you want I think. Don't beat yourself up too much, as I have done, just hang in there and believe that it will happen for you. By all measn take some lessons, but my perception is that you have a "self taught" streak which may be ultimately important.
Hang in there gal!
Regards
Clive
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Author: diz
Date: 2007-06-18 06:31
Also - see that your mouthpiece isn't too far into your mouth ... this case cause shqveeks, too.Clive wrote:
> Hi Winnie
>
>
> I just saw your posts. I've been where you are, and to some
> extent still am!
>
> At first I thought that my squeaks were due to poor embouchure,
> which surprised me, as I have good lungs and lips. Furthermore
> I could just not get my front teeth onto the mouthpiece, and
> used double lip embouchure, largely frowned upon by teachers,
> but OK I believe. One day I managed to get my front teeth onto
> the mps, and now cannot understand why I could not do so
> previously!
>
> I now believe that my squeaks are almost always due to poor
> fingering, particularly difficult for the low B,A and G notes.
> I am a mature student, and have a medical condition which means
> my right hand fingers are poorly co-ordinated. One thing I
> learned, which apparently most clarinettists know, is that the
> ring fingers are by far the weakest of them all, and when
> moving other fingers, the ring finger tends to become somewhat
> dislodged.
>
> At first, while I could play a scale down to low G, I just
> couldn't hit it first time, or go say direectly from C to G.
> Now after considerable practice I find I am much improved. In
> answer to your question: yes the margin between perfect
> intonation and a squeak can be very small in my experience. At
> first I simply could not blow a 2.5 strength reed, and the
> extra air I was trying to blow was making things worse.
> Reverting to a 1.5 strength reed was very beneficial, but now
> blowing a Van Doren 2.5 is no problem.
>
> The other aspect which may be problematic is psychological I
> beleive. As a mature student one is much less tolerant of
> error, and the fear of failure is always in one's mind, which
> compounds the difficulties. Perhaps I didn't have the right
> teacher ( much younger then me): he is a brilliant player, but
> is used to teaching much younger students who apparently have
> much more suppleness in their young fingers, and couldn't
> really understand or therefore explain my difficulties.
> Therefore I have taken a "tuition sabbatical" while I work hard
> at my own technique, which is improving, albeit too slowly for
> my own liking. This also lessens the pressures which although
> one might feel is not a problem for a mature student, I think
> really can be because playing the clarinet is something quite
> outside my experience. If learning involves the brain, I am
> comfortable, and am intellectually equal to any teacher, even
> though I might be a novice. When it comes to a mechagnical
> skill like playing the horn, I am in uncharted territory, and
> am nervous as a kitten.
>
> I can only subscribe to most everything that others have said,
> some of which may be more relevant than others, but I think the
> most important thing for you will come from within. What I mean
> is that, you should have faith that what you are attempting is
> not rocket science, and that you will be able to achieve
> reasonable competence given time and practice. Perhaps you
> will never be an Emma Johnson, but remember she started at age
> 3 and is now thirty something, and has had a head start;
> however you can be as good as you want I think. Don't beat
> yourself up too much, as I have done, just hang in there and
> believe that it will happen for you. By all measn take some
> lessons, but my perception is that you have a "self taught"
> streak which may be ultimately important.
>
> Hang in there gal!
>
> Regards
>
> Clive
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: WinnieS
Date: 2007-06-18 07:13
Thanks again for your valuable advice, comrades.
Buy the way, I wouldn't mind to be a whoman if I was born so but now that position is taken by my wife.
Perhaps not very suitable nickname... Never mind and call me whatever you like!
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Author: Jacqueline
Date: 2007-06-19 14:06
HI Winnie,
I think it is important to focus on actually producing a sound and this is just going to take pure muscle memory. You can start thinking about tone and intonation say in 1 to 2 months after you have been bashing away at making sounds but until your body learns the best way to actually get that reed vibrating in the best way you will have buckley's of doing much else. Adults often know more than is good for them and want to produce beautiful sounds from the word go but you won't so don't worry. Imagine you're a kid and play like a kid. It will be much more fun!!!
Imagine this if you will: Try to think your your mouth as the opening of a draw-string bag with the middle of your bottom lip as the point the draw string comes out. Imagine pulling your embouchure tight via the draw string by pulling down along your chin. Your mouth needs to be in a shape that will produce an 'OOOOOOOOOOOOOOR' sounds and not an 'eeeeeeeeeeeee' sound. The 'eeee' sound will always indicate tension within the mouth while the 'oooooorr' shape is a much more relaxed mouth shape. A relaxed mouthshape will help in eliminating squeaks but if all else fails...call your nearest clarinet professional for some face-to-face advice. Good luck!!!!
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